Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer, jb. And today, our guest is someone who's made a huge impact on her industry and the people in it. Carla McCall is the managing partner of AAF CPAs, one of the top 100 CPA and consulting firms in the country. She's also been recognized nationally as one of the most powerful women in the profession. At her firm, she's built programs that empower women, elevate underrepresented voices, and challenge her industry to think bigger.
Hey, Carla. How are you?
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Good, Sean. Good to see you.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: It's great to see you. Thanks for joining us today. What's the worst advice you ever got?
[00:00:44] Speaker A: The worst advice I ever got was don't laugh so much.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Okay, well, knowing you as well as I do, at some point you didn't take that advice, but. Oh, my gosh, tell me the story behind it. How did you.
How are you told? Don't laugh so much.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: This is. This is stirring up some feelings. I haven't spoken about this for probably over 25 years, Sean, but I started my career fresh out of college. And about two years into my first job at the first firm I worked for, I received, like, a love letter from a manager that I. I worked for.
It was basically saying how he kept thinking about me, even though he had.
While he was sitting there rocking his newborn. I mean, it was really quite cringy. I didn't know what to do with it. But I did march into the managing partner's office and handed him the letter because I was really, really upset about it.
And he read it, and he was, wow, like, shocked. Like, sort of visibly shocked. And then he. And then he said to me, well, you do laugh a lot. Maybe you shouldn't laugh so much.
[00:02:04] Speaker C: Like, it's your fault.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Maybe he got the wrong impression. Yes.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Oh, man. Holy cow. So you're in this very vulnerable moment. The executive leader says, yeah, maybe this is something you did to lead this manager to. To do this.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. It's crazy. It was just, like, took. I. I mean, I took the letter back because I was like, okay, well, I. It's in writing, so I want to keep it. I didn't know how I was going to process that, but the. The conversation sort of left me thinking about.
Well, feeling like I did something wrong. Number one.
Yeah. This was a time when there were very few women in the workplace and very few women as partners in firms.
And I started to second guess myself. Like, well, should I be acting a certain way?
You know, just really nervous about how to act, what to do.
I couldn't be myself, I guess is, you know, how it made me feel.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Like, so you, you took the advice for a little while.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: You said, okay, maybe you're right. Maybe I should laugh less.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I did. I started to adjust, obviously, as I, it took me time to process this.
[00:03:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: And, and I did stop laughing. I, I was more reserved. I was questioning everything. I didn't want to make anybody else feel, you know, obviously they. He made it seem like it was me and so I didn't want to give anybody else a wrong impression.
[00:03:42] Speaker C: I don't know how to ask this question the right way, but like, did it help?
Like, did the guy back off? Was there a thing, did the advice actually work for you?
[00:03:52] Speaker A: So what was in, in reflecting on this? And I, like I said, I haven't thought about this in, in a long, long time.
The, the. I don't know. So I don't know what happened after he was not fired immediately.
There was no follow up with me.
He stayed for a period of time. We were not scheduled together anymore, but it was, it was a very, very uncomfortable time.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: That's terrible. I mean, this, this manager just got shifted to another area and didn't really face any real consequences, it sounds like, but you were seemingly experiencing all kinds of consequences from this.
Did you talk to anybody, like a close friend about this or did people start noticing you change who you naturally were and may even ask you about it?
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, obviously I shared it with my. I shared the letter. I had the, I had it in writing. So I let people read it because I was like, am I the crazy one here? Like, what? And so I talked to some close friends that I had inside the company. You know, obviously they were like, well, did you report it? And yes, I did report it.
And this is what they told me. Don't laugh. Like, don't laugh so much that leading, I'm leading people on and what do you think about that? So I had to sort of do my own.
I get my own research or get my own affirmation that I'm not crazy, I guess, if that makes sense.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it does.
Was it kind of told to you from the standpoint of this is the mold of how to be a professional or this is the mold of how to be an accountant? Is that kind of how you felt like it was coming across or maybe even reflecting on it?
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I took it as I shouldn't be having so much fun and. And laughing is not professional. I mean, that's how I took it. So I adjusted. I'm in a professional services firm. This is my first job, and here I am so grateful for the firm that gave me a shot. Right. I, you know, it was a hard job market when I graduated, and so I had a lot of gratitude for the opportunity, but then felt a little lost because I didn't know how I should act. And it wasn't natural for me. You've known me a long time, and it's not natural for me not to sort of bring fun and humor into everything that I do. And so.
So I struggle with that for a while.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah. How long do you think you were challenged with these feelings and this.
What did it cost you?
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Well, I guess it cost me being uncomfortable, you know, just developing relationships.
What I've. What I've learned over the course of my career journey, and when I've taken time to self reflect on how I've gotten to where I am, it is really about building trust with people. I develop relationships and build rapport really easily, and I use humor. And when you can make people laugh, they just feel. Feel more connected to you. They want to be around you. It was really a big part of how I've developed relationships. And in this profession, as you know, it's all about. It's all about trust. So for a period of time, I'm sure I was awkward.
You know, I was awkward and not really developing those deep relationships because I felt less connected and less engaged and a little. And less respect for leadership. And so when I had an opportunity to move from my home state to Massachusetts and it was, you know, actually easier to do because of that experience, if. If that makes sense.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: It does, yeah.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Makes a ton of sense. So really, really the ability to leave that place altogether is when you really were able to truly be like, well, I've got a clean slate here. I'm going to be who I am.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: Yes. And when I joined, you know, when I was looking for my next firm, I said to myself, self, you are going to be unapologetically you.
And, you know, I never wanted to be in that situation again. And I felt like I needed to be in a place that would embrace me for who I was, because that's when you. When you have fun, you have to be your genuine self, your authentic self. And so, you know, that was when I was able to really start fresh. It really helped me build and forge relationships here.
So it's hard to Move firms. As an experienced person, even today, you come over with experience, people are feeling you out. Like, what, you know, who are you? Where were you? What do you know? You know, you didn't grow up here kind of thing. And people already have their, their, their relationships, their close relationships. You have to sort of break in.
And it was sort of that gift that I had and half that allowed me to sort of make friends here as an experienced person. Five years into your career, you're coming in. It's, it's, you know, it's not easy.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: What, what does humor help you do? Like, talk more about how humor helps you in all your endeavors.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: What I found is that when I make people laugh, it just builds, it really builds a connection with people.
And in order to build influence, and as a leader, you need influence, you need to build trust. And in order to build trust, you need to, you need to be able to connect with a lot of different kinds of people.
And I feel like when you make people laugh, it's, it's sort of that common connection that, that you're, you're aligning around or that you're feeling good, you know, with each other, and then it just sort of breaks down walls when.
[00:09:35] Speaker C: You'Re looking back at that time when they told you not, you know, not to laugh and you're thinking about this person who wrote this love letter and these things. Let's say you had ignored that advice. You know, you think would have happened, like with that situation, you know, would it have gotten worse? Would have gotten, stayed the same? Like if you just said, well, no, I'm, I'm not going to do that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep making people laugh.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: If I had not taken the advice of don't laugh so much and just stuck to that, I, I'm not sure I will, Would have progressed or I, I, I certainly wouldn't have acclimated to my new firm as much. I don't think I would have progressed as much in my leadership journey because I would have been miserable and I would have not been myself. I think how you are comes across to people, they feel it and it, I just, I think it, I would, I would have just maybe fell out of the profession. It was too stiff for me, too stuffy. I don't fit here is probably what would have happened. I would have left the profession.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that the difference.
[00:10:46] Speaker C: Between like being authentic and inauthentic, really, regardless of whether or not that's humor or whatever it is that you do.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So Authenticity is really important. And it's interesting, as I was reflecting on this bad piece of advice and don't laugh so much, you know, I was struck by a quote that I, by Maya Angelou that I quote often and I have a sign on my desk and it says people will not remember what you said or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
And it's that feeling, right? And so if you're making someone feel good, they're always going to remember that.
And, you know, I think that's another reason why it helps with that connection.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: So humor really for you is your superpower, Is that fair to say?
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Yes, I've said that before for sure.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, no, I totally agree. It just feels like in general, if you're using it and volunteer, I know you're a big volunteer and you serve the industry very, you know, very much through volunteering of your time. I assume that same approach of being a lovable, laughable, humorous Carla McCall has served you well.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. In the profession. I mean, it's a part of who I am though, in the, in the profile, in the high profile position that I was in is I did have to learn when and when not to use it.
And so that you know that you're still learning. Right. Throughout your entire journey, everything that happens to you, good and bad, prepares you for the next moment. But it's a huge part of who I am. It's a huge part of my leadership. I love to laugh. I love to make people laugh. And so, you know, having been told that so early in my career really threw me for a loop. In those early years for sure.
[00:12:34] Speaker C: One of the things that you said was that, you know, in this time maybe harassment wasn't taken as seriously or these things. If the same thing happened today, you know, you're 22, but it's now, it's this year. Do you think it would have been handled differently?
[00:12:46] Speaker A: So if this happened to me today, I would tell them to off.
[00:12:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm glad we got a swear in there.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: We need.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Well, you, you would. But what if it happened to a 22 year old today who was just starting in, in, in her career and happened. Do you feel like that we've advanced in.
I won't share what period of time it was, but a few decades.
Do you think it would be handled differently by leadership today?
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I believe that our profession has evolved. I think back on these moments even when we're talking about just women and leadership and opportunities for Women, we are light years ahead of where we were when I started in this profession. So even though some of the numbers aren't where we want them, I do feel like we have made progress. So if that were to happen to someone young today, at least in the cultures that I've seen, certainly here in my firm, it would be a learning moment. We would call that a learning moment because we, we, we, we run inclusive cultures. We run an inclusive culture here where we want everybody to feel comfortable to bring their whole selves to work. Right. And so that is important to us. And I think it's important to a lot of companies today that they allow people to bring their whole selves to work and everybody has something to bring to the table, but they have to be their authentic self. Self, or it doesn't come across genuine. If you don't come across genuine, you're not building trust. And if you're not building trust, then you're not going to be a strong leader.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. You, you needed this clean slate to really jump back to being your whole self. But it also feels like, Carl, in the way you described how you were handling this worst advice was you immediately went to peers to, to question it. Right. It feels like you were brought up to question things that maybe didn't make sense to you instead of just believing it because they peers or your elders did that. I'm assuming that helped you process this a little bit, was the way you were brought up to just be like, no, this doesn't make sense. Let me question this a little bit.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've talked about the influence that my mom has had on my leadership journey. My mom's a very strong woman.
Emigrated to this country from Italy when she was a teenager, learned the language, how to get her ged, took courses at a community college, and ended up with a thriving career.
But, you know, and I didn't appreciate it then, but she was a woman who always spoke her mind. If I were to give her a Myers Briggs, I'm sure she's an extrovert.
And, and she always spoke her mind when she didn't agree with something as a child or a teenager. You're embarrassed by that.
When you reflect on what your strengths are, you realize that that's a strength, not a weakness.
And if you do it in the right way. And so I do credit a lot of the strength that I had. I had the nerve. How many people wouldn't have gone into the managing partner's office, right, to Say, hey, I just had this experience.
And so, so yeah, I think that that that strength and drive and, and ability to speak up, I didn't know it then, but was part of my upbringing and has allowed me to also have an influence on others in the profession.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Talk about being your whole self again. And like, why the, and like why that's not only good for like the individual, but it's actually good for the company that they work for. To bring your whole self to work.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So if companies have cultures of inclusion where people can feel comfortable bringing their whole selves to work, then that means that there is, is you feel a belonging.
And I don't know that that cultures can really thrive if people don't have a sense of belonging. If you're trying to fit a mold. I always felt coming up in this profession that, you know, you can't fit somebody else's mold. And, and I've, and I've learned that lesson over and over, even becoming a new managing partner from a founder transition where I felt like I had to lead like I saw and that was expected of me and I realized I was a much better leader being my authentic self and doing it very differently than predecessors. So it's, it's a sign of, of strong cultures and it'll lead to retention, just stronger retention within our firms, for sure.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: And, and I want to point something out for our listeners because they may not understand the sort of the levels of the tiers in our business. Carla, you were a brand new staff person, like first level, and there's seniors and maybe supervisors and managers. There's all these levels before partner, and then even at partner, you get into the managing partner. You skipped all of those levels and went straight into.
The best way I can describe for our listeners is right into the chief executive officer's office. To say this happened like that had to be born out of the strength your mother sown in you, both in her actions and what she told you to do to live your life.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I don't know that I appreciated it then, but I did have the guts to go into his office. Now I will also say, you know, the managing partner is the reason why I fell in love with this profession. So it's funny, he gave me the worst advice, but also was very progressive in how he ran the firm. And I fell in love with the relationship building and working with clients and all those things because of him. So I did feel a little bit of a comfort to go talk to him, I guess. And so Kudos to him to, to have that, I guess, open door policy that allowed a very junior me to walk into his office, shut the door and deliver a very distressing message.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: That's fantastic to hear. The worst advice many of our guests ever got came from people who gave them tons of great advice or set great examples for them. I mean, it's not unusual for the worst advice we ever got to come from somebody that impacted us in great ways. So it's another great example.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: There, there is a saying that it is true in this instance. And time heals all wounds. There's a reason why that, that is a thing.
And you know, even though you go through those periods I spoke about of the feelings, you, you feel mad and then you feel guilty and then you start to second guess what you did and all these things, as time goes on, you learn to move on from it. And so even though, gosh, I haven't talked about this in a long, long time, and, and, and it's brought me back to a period of reflection of what I, what I learned for how did it build me and change me as a leader.
I do think that over time it just, you know, some of it just gets easier to. You just bury it to some degree.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
What would you tell your 22 year old self right now, like, knowing what you know?
[00:19:49] Speaker A: So I would have, you know, I would tell my 22 year old self to always speak up, to always do what's right over the course of your, your career, your life, no matter what it is, bad things are going to happen or things that make you feel bad or negative, they don't define you and that you learn from every experience, good or bad. And it's, it prepares you for the next moment, it'll prepare you for what's next.
And so enjoy the journey.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Well, I've enjoyed this journey together today, Carla. What a great, great episode this is for our listeners.
And you know what? I have a feeling that many of them, as they listen to this are laughing a lot because they can relate to it. Right. They're probably being told, don't do who, don't do the thing. That is who you are.
So thanks for speaking up. Thanks for sharing the worst of I shiver. God, this was great.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm sure the people that know me are laughing because they know how much I laugh.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: I really appreciate you, my friend.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Thanks, jb.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Carla and I are pretty close friends. We've been friends for a better part of a decade now. And thinking back through our episode today, What. What I took from the story is that authenticity is not just a nice leadership trait. It's. It's actually strategic. And by refusing to shrink herself, she built deeper trust and connection, which in a field like accounting is really everything. Like, trust is the currency, and without it, you know, all the numbers and the results don't matter.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: Yeah. I love how she framed humor as her superpower. You actually said that. And she. She said people had said that to her. You know, in business, you can spend so much time on, like, the technical skills, you know, spreadsheets, victims being efficient, whatever. But people don't follow spreadsheets.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: They follow people. And if you can make people feel comfortable and laugh and actually want to be around you, you know, that's an influence. It's a leadership skill.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And not just influence, but sustainability. Right. You can't lead long term by pretending to be someone else. That burns you out. It erodes credibility. And Carla's whole career is proof that leaders who last are the ones who show up as their full selves.
[00:22:05] Speaker C: Yeah. It makes you think about, you know, again, advice in general, the whole point of this show, you know, sometimes it's not just bad, it can be dangerous. You know, if Carla had listened forever to don't laugh so much, you know, she might have left the profession entirely. You know, Instead she turned it around and built a culture where people, you know, can bring their whole selves to work.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: Yeah. It's really the point. Right. Bad advice might tell you to play small, but the best leadership comes when you lean into really who you are.
Carla, my friend, love you. Thanks for being our guest today, and thanks for listening, everybody.
Hope you got a lot out of Carla's episode today.
I'm sure you did. We appreciate your time listening in, and we appreciate your time when you join us next week for an all new episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got.
