Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the worst advice I ever got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer, JB. And today our guest is Kyle Stapleton. Kyle was ultimately referred to us through our instagram page, so if you've got a great guest example for us, send it over to us. More about Kyle Kyle is head of global engagement for sustainability at McKinsey and company, helping passionate colleagues connect and contribute to McKinsey's work as a catalyst for global climate action. Kyle also advises and champions organizations working at the intersection of Atlanta's cultural impact and civil rights legacy, which has included reimagine Atlanta influences everything. Generator the A pledge and Future foundation.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Hey, Kyle, thanks for joining us today.
[00:00:54] Speaker C: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Kyle. What's the worst advice you ever got?
[00:00:58] Speaker C: You should settle down. And it's not a single piece of advice. It's been more like a chorus over the years.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: You should settle down. Okay, who gave you the advice?
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Who hasn't given me the advice? Everyone who's met me and needed me to do a thing.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Settle down. Explain to me what you should settle down even means. Like, I'm thinking of my telling my three year old you should settle down versus telling a 34 year old person who hasn't, quote unquote, settled down yet.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: What does it mean?
[00:01:32] Speaker C: Very similar energy to your three year old. You're not behaving in the way that you should be behaving. So please love what you're bringing to the table, but not like that. Do it a different way.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Ah. So we love you. We just don't love the way you do it.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Uh huh. We love you, but we're not sure if we love it like you yet.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: So when someone tells you you should settle down, how's it make you feel?
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Well, I.
Something to know about me is I have what many would describe as an issue with authority.
If you've seen Talladega nights at the end of the movie where things are going too well, they're at the Applebee's. They're having a nice family, momentous. And the father, Rhys Bobby, doesn't like it. It hits a bone for him. So my wife and I actually call it the Reese Bobby bone. If the world puts an imposition on us and says, you need to be a certain way, it knocks us in the Reese Bobby bone. And we have a visceral, physical reaction to it.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: So you can't necessarily hide how you feel when someone says you should settle down.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: If I had a poker face. I would have taken it to Vegas a long time ago.
I have stayed in the principal's office pretty much my whole teenage life and career.
And no regrets, I guess. But, yeah, it's kept me on the edge more than it hasn't.
[00:02:59] Speaker D: How'd that translate to when you get to your career now and someone's like, hey, here's what I think you're good at. Here's what you should do.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: It's a bit like putting a cake dish on a firework that's about to go off, you know, I went to grad school. I got my MBA. I did a lot of the things that the world told me that I should do. And very first job out of the gate in grad school, it was like, hey, great ideas. Keep doing it.
We're not going to encourage it, though. Like, please focus on just the thing we're asking you to do first. Which, now that I'm older, understand a little, but still at a bone marrow level I hate and try not to do with people that I see myself in who are younger and bring the same energy and ideas. It's like when I look out at the world, I see a state of imperfection, always. Things could always be better. Things aren't perfect yet, so why aren't we doing more? Why can't we change?
I have so much energy. Just let me get my energy out of, you know, that's not always welcome by people who have a business to run and a status quo to uphold and a family to feed. And my general presence is a great disruption for all of those things.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: When did you first begin to hear this?
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Yeah, trying to adopt. It was a failed strategy early on because it's like, if I do it your way and it still doesn't work out, then I failed, and I'm miserable because I didn't do it the way that would have been fun or real for me.
I mean, in third grade, my teacher told me to stop writing in all caps.
It's like a very small example. But you kept me after class to be like, don't do that.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: You look angry when you write that word.
[00:04:54] Speaker D: Donald Trump.
Sean's gonna make me cut that part.
[00:05:00] Speaker C: So I.
Well, small caps.
[00:05:02] Speaker D: Small caps.
[00:05:03] Speaker C: Yeah, small caps. So reasonable, the way that I still write now as an adult, because I stopped doing it for the remainder of that school year. Hated the way my handwriting looked when I wrote like all the other kids, you know, like the workbooks. And so I started fourth grade, and I went right back to small caps, you know, in high school, my first job was umpiring youth baseball, and it was a real illusion breaker for me. It's like, just cause they're grown ups doesn't mean they're smart or know what they're doing or talking about. So it gave me a chip. You know, I was a teenager, I already kind of had a chip on my shoulder about the world. And then seeing adults, the people that were, like, supposed to be the people with the answers, not only not having answers, but be incredibly stupid, was a frustration that turned into a liberation. And I think that's just sort of like a window on the world that's carried me through every job I've had since then.
[00:05:57] Speaker D: I'm surprised you went into corporate. I mean, I know that you went started corporate ish, you know, it seems surprising.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:03] Speaker C: But like, how good is the party without me in it? I guess you know what I mean?
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Ooh, change agent is what I hear him saying. Sure.
[00:06:13] Speaker C: And also, like, I had a mentor who would always say in the room, in the deal, he was an entrepreneur. Well, if I don't go into corporate, if I don't go where the money is, I'm not going to be able to feed the family that I want or influence the kind of change I'm going to be stuck shoveling. You know what? For people my whole life, if I don't, like, get some influence and take control of the situation, and it's just been an uphill battle of that the whole way. But, like, I wouldn't change a thing. I don't think I would be happy on the outside of the party being a starving artist, knowing that all this stuff is still happening to other people anyway.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Did you have a true sense of who you were early on?
[00:06:56] Speaker C: You know, somebody of a certain age is probably going to listen to this podcast and say he's a millennial who was told he was special his whole life. And that's more my mom's fault than my fault, but it's less that and more like I came out big. I was a 99th percentile kid, and I've had an enormous, like, I'm a physically big person with an even bigger aura around me. And it's less that I was cognizant of being different or being outside the structure and just knowing that I was a lot. And I just wanted to, like, I just wanted to. I had so much energy to burn off all the time and was so stoked to do things and learn things and try things. It all comes from. From a very innocent place of curiosity and love for the world. And to anyone I've ever frustrated in my life, I apologize. It does come from a good place.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: When you bring in that energy and.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: You do that and you get maybe the whoa, whoa, whoa.
How does that affect you?
[00:08:01] Speaker C: I think my hurt turns into defiance pretty quickly.
You know, it's a thing we haven't gotten to in therapy yet. Now that I'm getting a little older, that it probably does come from a place of not being seen, you know, not being recognized for. I don't need to be told that I'm talented or that I'm special, but, like, what I lack in skill, I make up for boundlessly and care. Like, if I'm here and showing up, that energy comes from a place of love, right? And I was probably a lot worse at expressing it early in my career. Certainly when I was a young man, it did hurt. But I've always tried to channel that pain or that grief into something productive. There has to be an outcome, right? And in a career, in business, it's not going to stop. I can't stop having a job or making a living, so I got to make it mean something. I think as a creative person, too, as a storyteller, there's an aspect of meaning that's really important to me. What was this all for? A great example is at my first sort of big kid job out of grad school, I recognized this thing that I wanted to do around organizational culture. I saw that work wasn't great. Work could be a lot better, and there were ways that we could make investments in making it better, and I wanted to help steward them. I wanted to be the gardener of the grounds of the place.
And so I wrote it into a job description, and I took it into an annual review, and they were like, this is great, but no, thanks, but we got it under control. We appreciate the initiative.
And so after the disappointment of that wore off, it was like, well, hold on. I have a written job description in my hands now, and this is a physical asset that I can shop. So I did, and it turned into a thing. But it's like there's no sunshine without the rain.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: You know, to use your analogy, it rains on us enough that we know how to carry an umbrella next time, right?
[00:10:03] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
You should settle down. Are there moments that even you think, yeah, maybe here, I should settle down.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: Once again, my instinct is to defy you again.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Good for you.
[00:10:16] Speaker D: That's fine.
[00:10:20] Speaker C: I think I will acknowledge that it is smart to acknowledge my limitations as a human being. At some point, there are diminishing returns on my physical energy with fighting a battle, but that tank gets renewed pretty quickly, and I think it's a thing that I've come to recognize about myself. I don't know if I'm fueled by spite or what, but I saw a meme a while back that said, the universe has allowed me to live another day, and I'm about to make it everybody else's problem.
And if nothing else, I still have that. I woke up, and I can still get some energy from this thing. Yeah, sure. Candidly, only my wife really knows the depths of, should I stop?
Am I being Sisyphus right now?
But then she's like, well, it's gotten you this far.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:21] Speaker D: What do you think made this the worst? There's a lot of bad advice you've gotten, probably tons of bad advice. Why is this the worst advice you ever got?
[00:11:27] Speaker C: I think this is the worst advice that I've ever gotten, because I recognized at some point that it wasn't for me. It was to satiate somebody else's expectation of what I was supposed to be.
And this is probably, probably too strong a reflex around the advice, but it sort of made me mistrust the institution of advice in general. Like, well, why are you telling me that? Like, what stake do you have in the outcome of me settling?
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Is it for you, or is it really advice for my benefit?
[00:12:05] Speaker C: That's right. That's right. And the second it starts to feel like it's maybe for you, then it's like, oh, well, I'm going to show you.
How dare you try to get me to do your bidding in such a roundabout way. I would rather you just tell me and crack a whip, right? At least we can be honest with each other then. So when it feels like, oh, this is for your benefit, but it puts me in a box. That's what makes me crazy.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: I can see that. I can see someone saying, you should settle down. It's in your own best interests. And you feeling like, ooh, yeah, whose best interest is this for the worst one.
[00:12:42] Speaker C: And I've gotten this at multiple stages in my career, is like, hang in there. We've got plans for you. Like, you've got real potential. Just hang in there. There's a vision, and it's like, dog, I got my own vision. We're going to do this on the time that I want to do it. And if we can't agree on what that time is, then c'est la vie. I'm out. And I think a lot of the pivots that I've made in my career have really boiled down essentially, to that irreconcilable differences moment.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: My junior varsity basketball coach told me one time, Taylor, you've got great potential. I said, thanks, coach. He goes, potential means you're not any good yet.
[00:13:23] Speaker D: That's a good way to look at potential.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Needless to say, I did not make the varsity basketball team. But, you know, it's interesting, the advice, you should settle down. It does feel a little patronizing.
[00:13:36] Speaker C: Yeah. They want me to be a faster horse, right? I'm an automobile.
And until they can figure out how to turn me back into 1 hp, then it's like, whoa, hold on.
[00:13:46] Speaker D: I want to go back to the advice part in general. Finish the sentence for me, advice is, can I curse? Yes.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Yes, you may.
[00:13:58] Speaker C: Advice is bullshit.
Even with the best of intentions, you're impressing your window on the world onto somebody's window of the world, and there's a gap between what somebody else is going through in their life and their headspace and what you're doing. So advice is bullshit. Listening is better.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: We've had a few guests who have talked about advice being more finding context. I don't give advice. I give options, things like that. Right.
[00:14:29] Speaker C: That totally resonates with me. And I tend to attract younger people like me who feel disoriented by the ways the world tries to control them, and frustrated. And even when I have a little knee jerk instinct to be like, you know, just hang in there, just like, I feel myself turning into my father, so to speak, philosophically speaking, and giving the bad advice, taking a minute to pause, top down, proactive, prescriptive advice. It's just like, tell me what you love. Tell me what you're stoked about. Tell me what you would like to do, where you'd like to go, and then say, okay, well, what I heard you say in that, what resonates with me is this, this and this. And it reminds me of these things from my career. But not to say, like, you should do this, because never at any point in my life have I ever known that any of my decisions were the right thing to do. All I had was a wing and a prayer a little bit, you know? But I want them to feel like they could run through a brick wall because they have a clearer sense by talking it out of.
Of what could happen.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: I think a lot of people think of advice as a way of helping others. So how do you help others. If you're not big on giving advice, what is it that you do to help others who maybe could use some help?
[00:16:03] Speaker C: I genuinely try to do what I think you're doing right now. I start with listening. I mean, the other person's the more interesting person in the conversation immediately anyway, right? And I can always learn something from their story. Their worldview and experiences are different than mine and so I can gain some new perspective. But then there can be a moment of what can I do? Who can I connect you with for a coffee?
Can I look at a resume for you?
Can I just sit with you in this moment? Like, I don't have any good answers, but can you just stay in touch with me so that I can continue to be a cheerleader for you? I would say at the end of the day, on paper that probably doesn't amount to much, but it's the old Maya Angelou people will remember how you made them feel type thing. And I hope that again I leave people feeling like more as possible because they have everything in them already. I don't have anything that they don't accept, maybe access.
So as much as I can give away of what I have and make them bigger in the process, that's all I'm trying to do.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: I think it's a great point. I think all too often when someone is approached on tell me what you think about this. They feel pressured to have an answer, even if they're not an expert in it, even if they don't really have.
[00:17:24] Speaker D: A great answer, especially if they're not an expert.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Ooh, yeah, yeah. See? Comments.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: The best answer is out there in the ethereum. Nobody has it yet. We can only get to it together by collaborating and brainstorming and all those sorts of things. I'm only excited when we get into the sort of frontier space where no man has gone before. And you can only do that by acknowledging that you don't know and by not settling down, by saying, I see a frontier beyond the horizon, like, let's go get after it. And anybody who tells you to settle down or wants to stay still or stay on the train tracks that are taking them point a to point b are just going to get in your way.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: What do you tell your five year old self, your ten year old self now, knowing what you know now, don't stop.
[00:18:11] Speaker C: The worst thing you can possibly do, the only bad outcome, is that you let the bastards get you down. If you know, if you believe in your heart of hearts that you're going in the right direction, and you're not hurting anybody. You genuinely want to make things better for other people, then just keep going.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Would you have been as impactful in your career, in your life, had you settled down?
[00:18:40] Speaker C: No, absolutely not. And I know that was a big, obvious no hanging in the studio before I said it, but just as importantly, in the spirit of pull down your own oxygen mask first. I would have been miserable. I wouldn't have been impactful because I wouldn't have been me. I, like, I had to grow.
I'm like the little sponge seahorse things that you get at the store where you put them in water, like dinosaurs. Dinosaurs, yeah. I wouldn't have been able to grow into my full form unless I hadn't listened.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: What's the number one skill set you have today?
Because you don't settle down.
[00:19:21] Speaker C: Curiosity.
I loved and miss Anthony Bourdain so much. And rooted beneath the surface of that sort of gritty cynicism about the world was a genuine love and a knowledge that, like, all the love and answers in the universe are out there if you just go find them and just look a person in the face and talk to them about it. And at the end of the day, I'm still that same five year old kid who knows there's so much world out there, and it's insane to settle and to stay where you're at. And I know there are people that aren't wired like me, and being in one little box is comfortable, and that's where they want to be, and God bless them, all the power in the world to them. But as long as there's more world out there, more albums to listen to, more restaurants to eat at, more people at the gas station to have a conversation with on a Tuesday.
Like, I'm gonna do it until the literal second I drop dead.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Well, Kyle, thanks for not settling down.
I mean, if you had settled down, you wouldn't have been a great guest today. So I appreciate the fact that you stayed you and you didn't settle down, and this was a high energy episode, so thank you.
[00:20:35] Speaker E: It sure was.
[00:20:36] Speaker C: Thanks for letting me fill the room with whatever my ideal is.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: You're right. Your aura is bigger than you, for sure. Thanks, guy.
[00:20:44] Speaker C: Thanks for having me.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Appreciate it.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Hey, JB, what if I told you you should settle down?
[00:20:49] Speaker E: People tell me that all the time, so I'm not. I'm not surprised.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: I mean, what inherently mean advice, don't you think?
[00:20:54] Speaker E: Oh, for sure.
[00:20:55] Speaker D: Especially we get a lot of people.
[00:20:57] Speaker E: On the podcast who talk about you need to know who you're talking to and what they are about before you give them advice. And this is absolutely saying to somebody who should not settle down at all, that they should settle down. Know your audience. He's got all of this energy that he wants to put into positive change into the world. And the, you know, he's now been allowed those opportunities at, you know, Turner Broadcasting and McKinsey and company and all these places, because he was just like, I'm going to do this, and I'm. Let me go all in.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: I think he kept hearing this advice, and I think it's part of why he's so defiant in battling back against. And I really picked up on that when talking to him. He's just very defiant about, no, I'm not changing that.
[00:21:38] Speaker E: I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and let's make sure that we can at least get something positive out of it.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: The other thing that I thought was a little unique to this episode, Kyle really saw through this and made the determination that the advice wasn't for his benefit, but it was for the person or the people that were giving him the advice. It would make them feel better if he would settle down. Not really advice, but like a request.
[00:22:03] Speaker C: Right.
[00:22:03] Speaker E: It's easier for us if you can just stay in this box, please.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm positive that everybody's going to like that episode Kyle brought to us today. Do us a favor. Go out and give us that five star rating so we can continue to have the impact we want to have. Bring you great episodes like the one we'll drop next Friday on the worst advice I ever got.
