Women Can't Have It All - Hala Moddelmog

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, and thanks for listening to this episode of the worst advice I ever got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, joined by my producer, JB. And today our guest is Hayla Modelmak. Hayla has had and continues to have an incredible career. She spent more than 30 years in president and CEO roles for heavyweight restaurant companies like Arby's, Wendy's and Church's Chicken. She served as president and CEO of Susan G. Komen for the Cure, the world's largest breast cancer organization, and under her leadership achieved its first four star charity navigator rating in September of 2020. After serving for six years as the first female president and CEO for the metro Atlanta Chamber, she became the president and CEO of the Woodruff Arts center. Hala, thanks so much for being with us today. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. [00:00:56] Speaker C: Well, we want to jump right into the worst advice you ever got. What is it? [00:01:02] Speaker B: The worst advice I ever got was when I was told that women can't have it all. [00:01:08] Speaker C: Wow. Okay. I want to unpack that. Can you tell us when you got this advice, what was the environment? [00:01:15] Speaker B: Well, first of all, it was 1995. Okay. So that takes us back a ways. And the environment was, I was the vice president of marketing at Church's chicken. My boss left. And so the top job at Church's was open, and I was asked if I wanted to interview. And I thought that was an unusual thing to be asked because it was like, well, of course I do. And then a handful of men just kind of got in line to interview, so. But I had these people trying to tell me, don't you know that women can't have it all? [00:01:49] Speaker C: Wow. [00:01:49] Speaker D: Wow. [00:01:50] Speaker C: So interesting that the men were just lining up for it with no contemplation about being asked yet. You had to be asked. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And the thing is, I appreciate being asked, but I'm not so sure that I wouldn't have stepped up myself because it didn't take me but about 30 seconds to say, you know what? I can have it all. I'd love to have this top job. I've got a beautiful family, two little kids, second and fourth grade, a wonderful husband. I want it all. [00:02:19] Speaker D: What do you think he meant by you can't have it all? [00:02:21] Speaker B: I just think that people, and especially back then, look, the workplace has evolved. Women have made a lot of great strides. But I think there were an awful lot of people trying to warn and really from a good natured place, but just trying to say to a woman, don't sacrifice your family for a career. And my message to myself and to really any young woman I talk to is just do both. If you enjoy a career and you enjoy a family, people really weren't thinking clearly, because why should it be any harder for me than it was for any man? And what I always tell young men is like, look, you can have it all too, but you gotta make a choice. Don't miss your family just cause you got a great career. You'll never get it back. You'll never get that time back. [00:03:09] Speaker C: What is having it all to you? [00:03:11] Speaker B: Having it all to me is really three things. You get to have a phenomenal family, you get to have a phenomenal career where you can really make a difference, and you get to be a part of your community. We're so lucky in Atlanta to have what we have, and Atlanta will let you help if you want to, but you gotta step up and you gotta do the time. So to me, it's all three of those things. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:36] Speaker C: I was thinking to myself, what does having it all mean to me? I think there's variability in that, do you not? [00:03:41] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, there's total variability. And look, I'm not judging anybody. I mean, everybody's got their version of you can't have it all. But let's be real. What they were saying to me back then was, oh, you've got a family, you've got children. You better be careful. Can you really do all this? And I was like, yeah, yes, I can. [00:04:00] Speaker C: I've interviewed a lot of people over the years. The most common question that gets asked in our interview process is, you know, what, is there work life balance here? Can I have work life balance? [00:04:12] Speaker B: There's a lot of talk about work life balance, and, I mean, let's be real. It's a real thing. But again, let's go back to 1995. No cell phones. We barely had email. So you were not connected 24/7 when you didn't have all that, you had to go into the office and put hours aside to do all the work that you probably could have gotten done in 30 minutes every night at home. Yeah, but you didn't have it, so you had to go, you know, into the office to work every Saturday. So back then, you actually, it was a little bit easier, I think, to have work like balance. You know, the other thing that I've heard a lot is you can have it all, just not all at the same time. But again, I still contend that you can do it all at the same time. Not saying it's easy and not saying that you might not feel an imbalance from time to time. But if you're smart about it and if your value system honors all three of those things, deep down, you will figure it out. [00:05:18] Speaker C: My definition of having it all aligns a lot with your definition. And for me, the challenge of doing that was you can't compartmentalize these things. It really, to me, is not about work life balance. It's about work life integration. So your life and your work really have to be one and the same. Have you integrated your life that way? [00:05:42] Speaker B: You know, absolutely. And I love that question. And I was, frankly, very lucky because a lot of my career was in food service with church's chicken and Arby's roast beef, and my kids were little. And frankly, if you're doing something that your kids can understand, there's a brand, there's food, there are tv advertisements, it's really easy to engage your kids. So I can't tell you how many little trays of chicken tenders have been delivered to schools all over Atlanta. Okay? And you better believe my kids were very proud and happy when those came in that I used to do. And, you know, of course, on my own dime, is like, the minute they could travel is I would take them on business trips with me. And the first business trip I took my son on, he was in the third grade, and it was Christmas holiday, and I had to go to Detroit to do something we call ride restaurants, which is when you go to a market and you just drive around to the various restaurants and cheer the people on and check out operations and everything. We literally stayed at a Holiday inn, at the airport, and rode restaurants, and he thought it was the greatest thing ever. [00:06:53] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:06:54] Speaker B: You know, you really can. You can integrate things and make them feel a part of it. [00:07:00] Speaker D: Why do you think people don't try to have it all? [00:07:03] Speaker B: I think sometimes because they get told they can't. I think sometimes people have different priorities. And again, I'm not here to criticize anybody's priority. I guess my message is, don't let someone else tell you what you can do and what you need to do. [00:07:18] Speaker C: I was having dinner the other night with a childhood friend, and we haven't talked in years. With two childhood friends. Actually, we haven't talked in years, and both our kids are kind of in the similar timeframe. They're finishing college, kind of figure out what they want to do. And he told me that his daughter said to him, you know, dad, I really just want to get married and be a mom and raise a family. That's her definition of having it all. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:07:41] Speaker C: And so I think that I was like, well, great. I'm so glad that she has clarity. Clarity and clarity to me here is what's really important. You seemed to have clarity at that time of what having it all meant to you. Someone else didn't really understand what having it all meant to you. It's hard to advise somebody if you don't know what they really are dreaming about or want. [00:08:04] Speaker B: Well, true. And that's why I go back to, you've got to stick to your own value system. You know, we talk about intuition and being authentic and those things a lot. And it's just really true if you're true to yourself. And look, maybe a couple times in my entire career I've done something that just didn't feel right in my gut and it never works out. So you've got to go with what is right for you. And I'm with you. Any young man, any young woman who has clarity and it's fitting their values, that's their life. That's what they should be doing. [00:08:39] Speaker D: Do you think people still give that advice now? [00:08:42] Speaker B: I think it comes up, but I don't think in nearly as easily or as frequently. I think it's a different world, thank goodness. And there are an awful lot of women out there who have done enormously phenomenal things, and they do have it all. [00:08:57] Speaker C: Well, you see that at your own organization, right? I know your organization very well. You've got incredible leadership at the organization by women. [00:09:05] Speaker B: We really do. I mean, the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra is run by two incredible women. We have another artistic director who's the leader at the Alliance Theater. Of course, I'm in the spot at the Woodruff Arts center. And then in terms of my direct reports, I think there's one man standing and he's our CFO. So it's, yeah, so it's, yeah, I mean, look, women have, and again, I really credit Atlanta. If you want to be a part of the Atlanta fabric and be a part of making Atlanta what it can be, people will let you. [00:09:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I feel like I have it all. And I will tell you that having it all is hard. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:49] Speaker C: The sacrifice, you had to make sacrifices, did you not? [00:09:52] Speaker B: Sure. Sure. And you know, a lot of the sacrifices, you know, were around sleep and doing other things. Sometimes I didn't exercise as much as I wanted to. But I will, will say this as well. You've got to know when to ask for help. And you've got to ask for help. I mean, I was very, very fortunate to have both of my husband's parents in town, and they helped raise our kids. And, you know, the first couple of times our kids got earaches, we were like, oh, my God, we got to go from work, and we've got to take them to the pediatrician and get their ears done. And by the time they'd had their fifth ear infection, we just had the grandparents take them because we knew what was coming. So we really, if you've got help, I mean, don't be afraid to ask for help. People wanna help you. They wanna help people live their fullest lives. So we were very, very fortunate. [00:10:44] Speaker C: I think it's a great point. The people that we would say, he or she has it all. We only look at them as individuals, but they have incredible support systems. I do just what you just mentioned as well. I think we gotta give credence to that. To have it all in your life, you need an incredible team to support you. It takes a village, literally. [00:11:08] Speaker B: It really does. And I will tell you, I always give my husband this credit, and it is absolutely true. We were 60 40 and with the kids, and he was the 60 and I was the 40, and, you know, and I always, again, tell young women and young men, you know, be careful who you choose as your mate, because that can determine if you really can have it all. [00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:30] Speaker B: Make sure you around you and the team. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I've had some incredible teams, and that's one reason I just don't ever want to not work, because I love the teams. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:40] Speaker D: Was there a moment when something happened? You were like, okay, no, I am gonna try to have it all. I know. I've been getting this advice from everywhere. I get it from women, I get it from men. I get it from everywhere. In the meetings, was there one moment where you're like, no, I'm trying. [00:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah. It was really the moment that they asked me if I wanted to interview to be the president of church's chicken. And I went home that afternoon and I told my husband, and, you know, we kind of looked at each other, and I'm really going to tell you, it wasn't 30 seconds until I'm like, well, sure, yeah. I mean, so it was really. It was instantaneous, and it was that gut feeling. So I knew it was the right thing to go for, and I didn't know if I'd be successful or not, but I was willing to take the risk. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:23] Speaker B: You know, you do have times that you regret that you weren't there for your kids. I mean, I got real lucky on the ballet and the football and the, you know, the church stuff. I mean, I was really in pretty good shape attending almost all of that. But one night, I was working late, and my husband called me and said, the kids have set up a lemonade stand, and they're waiting for you to come home. And there was some guy in my office, and he just kept talking and talking and talking, and I put him first. And when I drove home, they had taken down the lemonade stand, and it crushed my soul. And I didn't. I never talked to them about it until they were in literally their early thirties. And I said, guys, I've just got to get this off my chest. And they go, mom, we don't even remember that. We thought you were always there for us. And I was just like, oh, thank God, you know? So it's their perception and your perception, you know? But the lemonade stand, it crushed me because I just, like, I should have just gone home and bought some lemonade. [00:13:35] Speaker C: I think that goes back to all being a part of the sacrifice, all being a part of the cost. There will be moments when you question yourself on, maybe I could have done this or I could have done more. It's just hard. It is hard to have it all. [00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I. Look, I don't want to. I don't want to sound boastful. I just am grateful. Grateful. I mean, I so grateful every day for the life I've gotten to lead. And I have two grandkids now and a grandchild on the way, and I'm trying to just bust it out for them just as much as I did for my kids. So that takes energy, too. And at this point, I'm not as energetic, but I'm not gonna miss out on that either. But I'm not gonna not work and try to do things in Atlanta if I'm you. [00:14:20] Speaker C: I'm extremely proud of the career I've had, the organizations I've led, the organization I currently lead. And I want my family, my friends, my community to benefit from that. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. Let me tell you, I feel very, very proud of what the Woodruff Arts center offers. And people may not know as much as I know now, having grandkids, how much there is there for youth and families. I mean, there are things for little babies called babies off book for the alliance, there's Alliance Theater. For the very young, zero to five. The orchestra has that. Their toddler days at the museum. You just have to take advantage, and a lot of it is just absolutely free. And we just. I'm very proud of that. Very, very proud. [00:15:10] Speaker C: Yeah, it's incredible. In 2025, do you see a difference in the opportunities for women to lead and to have it all, so to speak? [00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I do. I mean, and thank goodness. I mean, otherwise I'd be very, very sad. Things have really, really changed. It's a different place, and I wouldn't think a woman would hesitate for any particular role. You know, I'm not saying that it would as easy, but I just can't imagine a role that a woman who wanted to do it wouldn't say, I'm going to go for it. [00:15:47] Speaker C: 30 years ago, you were saying men were just lining up for this, and there was questions about whether women should even sign up for this role. That dynamic different today. Like, we don't feel that same way. Or is it still there? A little bit. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Here's the part that's still there, and there's a lot of data on this. Unfortunately, women don't raise their hand for a promotion or try to go for a new job unless they know about 80% of the role. They've got to make sure they kind of know it. Men will go for it when they know 40% of the role. And I frankly felt like a man after I heard this, because when I accepted the role for church's chicken, I didn't know anything about real estate, I didn't know anything about HR. I didn't have an MBA. I had come out of the marketing world. I mean, I could go on and on about what I didn't know. But I also knew that if you get a great team around you, people who are smarter than you are, and they know what they're doing, that you can figure it out. But women sometimes have this need to have to know all the answers, or most of the answers before they raise their hand. That's what we gotta break out of. You gotta take the risk. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:02] Speaker C: Risk aversion is what I hear you talking about. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:05] Speaker C: Yeah. It's a big point in any decision to stop exactly what it is you're doing and do something new. There's risk involved. Well, Ayla, I think this has been fantastic. And I'm so glad that years ago, when you were advised not to try to have it all, that you quickly got to the. I mean, it was great that you were quickly able to get there with. [00:17:31] Speaker A: Your husband that evening. [00:17:32] Speaker B: I know, and I will tell you again, if it had not felt right, you know, for my whole self, I wouldn't have done it. Yeah, but it did. And I'm very grateful. Again, I've had a lot of people along my career be very helpful to me, and I am very grateful that I got that call. And, you know, here we are today. [00:17:51] Speaker C: You're an incredible role model for women. You're an incredible role model for men. You're just an incredible role model for people who aspire for leadership, aspire for impact. And I think that people are going to really appreciate you spending time today sharing some of your experiences on the worst advice you ever got. Thanks for joining us today. [00:18:11] Speaker B: Hale, thank you very much. And thanks to Smith and Howard. [00:18:14] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:18:15] Speaker A: Well, JB, that was a real treat for me. Having known Hala for several years and seeing her leadership. I was just thrilled to death to have her join us today because I feel like I've seen her be able to, quote, have it all. And to hear her say she was challenged by someone to maybe say she can't have it all seemed very funny to me because I see her having it all. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:18:39] Speaker D: I think what I really took from it was the. Was just that you should try no matter what. Even if someone tells you you can't have it all or you think you can't have it all, is hard. There's sacrifices that you have to make. You're gonna. It's all these balancing acts that you're gonna have to do, but you should try. It's worth it. And when you do it, you're going to feel so much better. [00:18:59] Speaker A: And her acknowledgement that you don't do it on your own and knowing you need help and actually asking for help is one of the most critical ingredients to being able to have it all. [00:19:11] Speaker D: Yeah, obviously, we've come a long way. She's feeling great about where we are right now, but the eye opening stat for me was that women need 80% of the knowledge to feel like they're comfortable applying for a job and men only need 40%. Even though she was like, well, this is 1995, I was hearing this advice long ago, it's still kind of pertinent today. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a staggering statistic, JB, as I sit there and listen to her talk about that and to really think through the reality of that, for women looking to reach out and take a chance on applying for something, I thought it was a little surprising given how far we've come, but it just means that we've got to continue to work hard to make sure that opportunities are presented for the best possible candidates not to have any type of, you know, bifurcation of opportunity given gender or any other type of limitation, for sure. [00:20:03] Speaker D: And, you know, always good for our guests to be able to get some helpful information, even when people are just talking about the worst advice they ever got. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah, no kidding. And one of the themes that, you know, I continue to see from our guests is that it wasn't ill intended, but it still missed the mark. [00:20:19] Speaker D: Oh, for sure. We've talked about this before, but can't, never should. You know, all these absolutes are really just if you're ever giving advice to somebody and you use one of those, you might end up on our show. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Thanks again to all of our listeners for tuning in to today's episode. And join us next week for another episode of the worst advice I ever got.