Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer, jb. And today our guest is Jamie Brindle. Jamie is a creative entrepreneur, a former media executive, and the founder of Zero Degree, a platform that serves over a half a million freelancers daily. Today he joins us to talk about the worst advice he ever got and why sometimes the smartest thing you can do is throw out the plan all together. Let's jump into it. Hey, Jamie, really appreciate you joining us today.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Happy to be here, man. Happy to be here.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's dig right into that pain. What's the worst advice you ever got?
[00:00:45] Speaker A: The worst advice I ever got was write a business plan.
[00:00:50] Speaker C: Okay, okay.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Write a business plan.
[00:00:52] Speaker C: Sean has a business plan.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: I do have a business plan. So I'm a little scared now. What's wrong with the business plan? Jamie, maybe give us some background what's going on here?
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I. So when I started freelancing, I came from a world of business operatives. I took business classes in college, even in my media specialty, I took medium business too, you know, and across the board it was write your SWOT analysis, put together your five year plan. You know, investors are going to want to see xyz. That was the first order of business for me when I went out on my own, was put together a binder that spelled out every inch of the next five years of my career, how it was going to go, what moves I was supposed to make, what I was supposed to be paying attention to. And lo and behold, two minutes after finishing that plan, it, it all became insignificant and useless to me. Of course, I didn't realize that until two years later, but I would say that I probably could have done more damage in those two years in a good way on my career, had, had I allowed myself the, the nimbleness, you know, of, of not having it, of dropping the dead weight of the business plan.
[00:02:09] Speaker C: Who made you write the business plan?
[00:02:11] Speaker A: I did. It's. I mean, yeah, you gave me advice to yourself. Yeah.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Because it's, it's conventional wisdom. Right.
[00:02:18] Speaker C: This is what you do. Right.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Isn't that right, Jim?
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I think today it's probably even still pretty par for the course. If you're too rigid, if you're too set on, you know, success as you defined it a year ago, or as your industry defined it a year ago, you're depriving yourself of many an avenue that you could go down and explore. Right. I think that specifically with freelancers Too, too many freelancers I see are getting their advice from more enterprise folks who, you know, are optimized for scale, who are optimized for building something that can be repeated. You know, they're building a company that's to be sold or to be acquired or, you know, and, and by optimizing a freelance business by the same ideals, you're depriving yourself of all the, all the assets that a freelancer has. Right? Is it's our, our specialties that we can iterate. I think that, you know, not allowing yourself that, you know, that ability, it's, it's like shackling one hand behind your back. By 2027, America is going to be a majority freelance workforce. You know, the majority of us are going to be building something for ourselves. Essentially, it's a permissionless fashion of work. There are people who, who excel in the freelancing model and there are people who excel in the 9 to 5 model. So this is in no way a judgment of nine to fivers. Just happens to be the camp I'm in. If you're a freelancer today, that's. It can be conflated with the word solopreneur, usually a service based industry. So, so it's a permissionless fashion of work.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: I hear you talking, you said preneur, right? You talked about solopreneurism or, you know, it ties back to being entrepreneurial and what we hope to create in our 500 person company is entrepreneurialism. People that can feel like they have an idea and they can pursue it and they can draw up how it might work, which gets into the business plan thing, which we'll, we'll get to in a minute. But they can come forward and feel like we will help them pursue, be the corporate sponsor of lead something. But it sounds like you're saying the typical condition of that is some compromise or something that dilutes what the individual really wants to do. Am I summarizing that fairly obviously?
[00:04:37] Speaker A: I think we're all painting with a broad brush here, right? There are caveats. There are, you know, and everybody's, everybody's living a unique life and making unique decisions based on their circumstances. But yeah, I would say that's fair. I think the trade off is if you're willing to give a brand or give a company some of that freedom, what you're getting in return, you know, is, is essentially you're, you're washing your hands of the responsibility of being, being the boss, which I think is. Some people don't want to wake up every day and be on the hook for their livelihood. It's like, okay, well, what's the plan today? You know, some people want marching orders, which is, is, again, it's not a judgment. It's a, it's a big point of consternation for a lot of the freelancers that I talk with. It's, you know, ma'am, I feel like I'm not making any progress, and I have, I don't have anybody to go to, to help me with this, you know, so there is, there is a give and take there. But I, I love what you're saying about, you know, entrepreneurs. That's, it's, it's a, it's a brilliant approach where you're empowering folks to, to, you know, try, try and like, you know, attach that nimbleness, try and attach that, that, that hustle to what you're doing within, you know, a. The structure of a corporation. You know, it's, it's a, it's a great hybrid model. It's a great way to get the best of both worlds a little bit.
[00:05:56] Speaker C: When it comes to the business plan, does it. Is it just people who are starting out doing freelancing or solopreneurs who shouldn't do a business plan, or do you think this is bad advice for everybody doing anything?
[00:06:07] Speaker A: I would say when it comes to just starting, it's bad advice for everyone. What I learned is that business is not necessarily a game of strategy. You're not playing chess, right? It's a game of discovery. It's a game of data collection where you're out there, you know, trying to fail fast. I, I get asked all the time, how do you deal with failure? And I'm like, I seek it out. It's something that it's. I'm, I'm looking for it, man. Like, because it's like, okay, cool, that didn't work. So we'll try it over here. Okay. This part of that didn't work. So that's the only thing I need to fix.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: What's the difference between a business plan and a goal?
[00:06:42] Speaker A: In fairness, I don't have these definitions taped to my wall yet.
We're going to explore these together, right? I would say business plan. I mean, my business plan was a binder, right? It was, it was once. Here's my strengths, my weaknesses, my opportunities, right? The list of clients I'm going to go after. Here's how I'm going to go after them. To what end am I going to go after them? Here's how I'M going to activate my network. Like a master strategy. Know, there's a lot of things that have to go right for this plan to mean anything 60 days from now even, right? So I would say that's a business plan. A goal is, you know, a direction you're heading, and that, I think, is a lot more conducive to success, especially early on in adventure, right? Early, early in my career, I was in college, I sat down with Mike Leonard from the Today show. He did all the human interest stories on the Today show. You know, he told me, imagine you're driving home from jmu. You know, you got to get home, but you're hungry, so you pull off the highway and grab a bite to eat. Then you get back on the highway, you know, and then you run out of gas. You pull off the highway again and get some gas, and then get back on the highway. It doesn't matter how many times you pull off the highway, as long as you know where home is and, you know you got to get there, right? So that's, that's a goal. It doesn't matter. I'm going to go explore this town for, for a second, right? But that's gonna. I'm still gonna get back on the road and go home. It's on my way home. I think that's, that's an important distinction. Another, another one that I talk about a lot in our freelancing program, and it's been a great piece of advice that I caught early on was to chisel the goal in stone, but chart the implementation in pencil, right? And that one, I think was revelatory to me because it was, okay, cool. I don't have to. None of this has to be written in ink. Just scratch it out, see how it handles reality. And if it doesn't do what you thought it was going to do, use that eraser, baby, and try something else.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: What were some things that were going on, maybe opportunities you missed, where the business plan was more of a hindrance than a help for you?
[00:08:47] Speaker A: When I first moved to la, the objective was traditional media. You know, get a job in film and television and, you know, do. Do the LA thing. And so what I missed out on was this little thing called social media, right? And that's an effort where, if I had started on Social when, when I was, you know, 22 years old, imagine where we'd be now. We took a couple shots at Social over the years and finally started the, you know, the channel that, that brought us together here today in 2020. And we serve over half a million freelancers every day across social media. Imagine what that would look like if, if there were an extra nine years of effort behind it. You know, time, time is an ally and it would have, it would have been a good one to have we.
[00:09:37] Speaker C: Talked about that, Sean, actually in our intro episode for season three, like what's it, you know, we've heard so much bad advice, so many things. What is like a big takeaway and it's just time, you know, when you listen to bad advice, you just lose so much time and that's what happened to you.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: That's a, that's really well worded. I mean, time, time is the great equalizer, right? It's the one thing that we all have the same amount of, you know, in a day. And, and I always say it's like you got the same, the same, the same hours in the day as the Pope and Beyonce. It's something that I'm on top of now for sure.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: How has your approach to business plans.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Evolved for, for me it's, it's the same for me. It's been, you know, there, there has not been a binder full of business plan developed since. Right. It's, I have not sat down and done this nor, nor will I, in terms of what dictates our efforts. You know, we sit down and we, we set a goal. Hey, what do we want to do with the next 12 weeks? You know, and, and I try to never get past those 12 weeks because so much is going to happen in 12 months if we marry ourselves to, you know, an annual goal. It's what we've been talking about here is we're going to miss out on opportunities. Right. Because the landscape is changing so quickly. It's, you know, so I try to keep it, keep it 12 weeks and honestly if you do that, I've found put putting a big ass 12 week goal on the wall allows us to get more done in those 12 weeks than some people get done in 12 months. You know, we tend to overestimate, you know, what can be done in a year and you kind of procrastinate. Whether you realize it or not, it's only April. You know, this is a year goal. I've got another, you know, another nine months on this one, you know, versus if it's, oh, we're, we're on week 10, we got two weeks left to make this thing happen. You know, there's a little more urgency that you get to maintain throughout your, your year that way.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: Why do you think people are still doing this. Like, it's. If the business plans are kind of slowing them down and you said they're seeing it like, what are we still doing this for?
[00:11:42] Speaker B: I want to answer that question, but also get your answer too. I think it's because it's, it's, it's ingrained in us.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: That's absolutely it. I mean, there are so many things that I think we're taught either directly like teachers standing in front of a room teaching you, or we're taught just by, like, existing. Right? By just like existing in this world.
[00:12:00] Speaker C: Is what it is always been.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. There's, there's just so much that that's been, that's been taught and learned that needs to be untaught and unlearned and luckily feel like there are more and more of those voices have emerged that are helping, you know, wake folks up to that, to, to that principle.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Did business plans ever work? Is this a function of just how fast information moves now?
[00:12:28] Speaker A: I mean, they haven't worked as long as I've been in business. You know, it's, it's. I would. So I'm, I'm a young dude, so I, I don't know if.
I'm sure there was, I'm sure there was a time because they wouldn't exist if that weren't the case.
But I think that we are, you know, in an era now where they're, you know, they're, they're dinosaur assets for a business. I think that, you know, it's more than ever if you want success. Right.
You got to be quick. You got to be able to move at the speed of, you know, innovation or whatever the market is, is bringing to you. Yeah, Business post it notes. Right. Not business plans anymore.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: JB was sharing a story with me that he said you and he talked about in the pre interview. I think it's a parable.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. It's. Well, I, I don't. I, I believe it's an actual study that was done. It's not even a parable. Although it's really, it's a little mean to the monkeys. So maybe I wish it was a parable, but it was. You know, they, they took five monkeys and they put a banana at the top of the cage and a ladder to the banana. And anytime one went after it, the rest got hosed with ice cold water. Over time, the scientists replaced the monkeys in the cage one at a time. Right. New monkey comes in, he go, hey, anybody see that banana up there? I'm gonna go, he Starts making. Making moves. Everybody yanks him down. He doesn't know why they're yanking him down. He just. He just understands. Okay, we don't do that here in this cage. Great. By the end of the study, every monkey's replaced and none of them go for the banana. Just because it's been. It's been learned that in this cage, we don't go after the banana. You know, And I think that it's. It's pretty indicative of a lot of the things. I mean, we've talked about. Why, hey, why do people still do this, right? Why? And why aren't people taking advantage of. Of. Of this. This opportunity over here? I'm sure, you know, in some way, shape or form, a lot of us are those monkeys in the cage that just said, oh, we just don't go after that banana in cage.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Why?
[00:14:37] Speaker A: I don't know why. It's just not something we do, you know, done it this way. Yeah, it's. It's these. These conversations I. I think I really appreciate. Because it. It forces us to analyze that, right? It's like, okay, which. Because there's more than one banana that. That in. In. In this grand cage that we're all in, right? That we're not going after just because it's not. Not done.
[00:15:00] Speaker C: And there is no more cold. There's no cold water anymore. We're not doing right. So go ahead.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Do you recognize any brands or companies that are a little larger who have done a good job not falling in the trap of being weighted down by a rigid business plan?
[00:15:19] Speaker A: I mean, my world, I. I primarily work with agencies. I'm sure everybody remembers. Which super bowl was it when the lights went out at halftime?
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Oh, that was the 49ers Ravens.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: There we go. Yeah. And. And. And Oreo jumped on Twitter, made a quick little, you know, graphic and. And posted it, right? And said, you know, it's. It's just as fun to dunk in the dark or something like that. And that thing went viral, right? And I think that that was an aha moment for a lot of agencies where it's like, okay, we got to be able to move at the speed of the cultural zeitgeist, you know, if we. If we want to. It's again, these opportunities that we're talking about, right? That opportunity closed within two hours. But the. The earned media for. For Oreo was. Was astronomical. Right?
[00:16:10] Speaker C: I mean, we're talking about it right now.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: Exactly.
This is for your product placement right now. Right. You know, the. The Ryan Reynolds has an Agency built on this principle. Like, that's literally the selling point of the agency is, hey, we're plugged into the zeitgeist. And, you know, anytime something goes viral, we. We figure out which one of the brands on our stable can take the most advantage of this viral moment, and we go make our version of it. You know, I think, you know, a lot of the agency world is figuring it out that it can't, you know, it can't just be legacy brands. You know, put their logo in a magazine, you know, if they want to continue growing. That's great for playing defense, but it's not great for playing offense. Right.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: It feels like there's a lot of unknowns of freelancing, of entrepreneurship, and you would suggest that not tying yourself down to a business plan is the way you want to be because you have to be prepared to pivot. Is that the central message that you want to give is just don't tie yourself down?
[00:17:13] Speaker A: I think for sure, because for a number of reasons, right. It slows you down, it closes doors.
And specifically with freelancers, or honestly, I can open this up to pretty much anybody trying to start anything. It's almost a form of procrastination I've seen in practice. I have conversations with thousands of freelancers over the years, and so many or people aspiring to be freelancers, and so many will say, I'm ready to go, man. You've converted me. I'm excited to get this thing started. I go, cool, when are you starting? And it's like, well, I just got to lock in my website and my business plan, and then I'm ready to go. And. And I said, well, let me. Let me fix this real quick. You don't need either of those.
So. So let's start today. The moment of absolute certainty doesn't exist. The. The perfect plan doesn't exist. And now more than ever, it's. If anything, it's, you know, it's a polite way of saying I'm procrastinating.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: Jamie, it feels like a lot of people are. I mean, you just mentioned before, in just a few years, we're going to be more of a freelance economy than we are we've ever been. So that means a lot of people out there are trying to get this going, and I'd imagine a lot of them are feeling stuck. How can they reach out to you? Or what resources would you recommend that they seek to, you know, not fall into the traps you fell into?
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Hey, if. If. If you find yourself in that camp, come find Me, Right. Come find me on social. I'm. I'm all the usual suspects. Instagram, tick tock, YouTube. Just. Just look for the Jamie Brindle on. On Instagram. Send me a DM and let's just chat. I'm. If. If, you know, you've observed nothing from this, it's that I. I love talking about this stuff, so. So send me a DM and we can talk there. But let's just start with a. With a simple conversation.
[00:18:57] Speaker C: That's how we got you on the podcast.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: Get into the DMs. Hey, man, come on the podcast. All right.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah, for sure. Well, this simple conversation we just had has been anything but simple. It's been complex, it's been educational, it's been valuable. And so I can't thank you enough, Jamie, for agreeing to join us.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: We've covered a lot of ground. I think we did good, guys.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Thanks, Jamie. You know, jb, we've heard some wild advice on this show, but write a business plan might be the sneakiest offender yet.
[00:19:30] Speaker C: Yeah, because, I mean, it sounds so good, right? It's what we're told to do from day one.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: But.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: But for Jamie, it turned into a straight jacket. You know, instead of helping him move forward, it locked him into this path, and it just didn't reflect the reality of what was happening in his world.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: No, exactly. And. And. And one of the biggest takeaways for me was this idea of business isn't chess. It's a game of discovery. It reframes how we think about strategy. It's not about predicting every move. It's about staying nimble enough to ultimately respond to whatever shows up.
[00:19:59] Speaker C: Yeah. I also love Jamie Shared. You know, chisel the goal in stone, but chart the implementation in pencil. You know what I mean? That's gold. It's not about throwing out the structure entirely. It's about letting your plans breathe, you know, so they don't box you in.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Whether you're a freelancer or an entrepreneur or someone trying to find your next move, maybe the best thing you can do is drop the perfect plan and just get going. Big thanks again to Jamie for joining us. We'll see you next week for another episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got.
