Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign welcome to another episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer jb and today our guest is Sam Reese. Sam is the president and CEO of Vistage Worldwide, the world's largest CEO coaching and peer advisory organization. He's worked with thousands of leaders across industries, guiding them through some of the most important decisions in their careers and their lives.
Personal note from me. I've been a member of vistage for over 22 years and it's been career and life changing. Now back to Sam. What makes his perspective so powerful is that it comes from experience on both sides of leadership. First as an all American track athlete at the University of Colorado, then as an executive at Xerox, Kinkos and British Telecom, and now leading one of the world's most influential leadership organizations, he's seen firsthand how ambition, family and legacy all collide. And he's here today to share the story of, of how that shaped him. Hey, Sam, thanks for joining us today.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: I'm looking forward to the conversation. Thank you.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Let's share with everybody. What's the worst advice you ever got?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: I've had a lot of bad advice over the years, but the worst advice ever got was, was this one was from a mentor that said when, when at home, think only of family and when at work, think only of business.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Talk about who gave you this advice and really a little bit of why it was the worst advice you ever got.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah, on the surface, it sounds like great advice and it propelled me for a while. I was a board member of a company that I was a senior executive of and he really took me under his wing, taught me a lot of things. But he was somebody who had tremendous success in business and he knew I was just starting a young family. So he said, like, this is the key, like when you're at home, you only think of them and when you're on the road or in business, it's only about business. And that was what I just said. That was the hardest part about it, is I traveled so much. So when you travel now, what is travel? Travel is now I'm in business the whole time. So I found that it just really, that compartmentalization sounded really exciting to me at the start, but it ended up being difficult down the road.
[00:02:13] Speaker C: So why is that?
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd like to understand what, what changed? What was it?
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Well, I think a couple things like start when, when you travel. So that is work especially, you know, when the era I was traveling, you know, call it the, the 90s is when I first started. So we didn't really have a lot of great tools to communicate with your family. So I was just gone when. When I was on the road, I was 100 business. Wouldn't sleep much, would just do as much as I possibly could. So when I got back home, I could be with family and. And then trying to jam everything into the time that I had with my family. I think they all felt like they were on a schedule with me now.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Sam, were you knocking out of the park at work? I mean, was being a hundred percent at work while you were at work resulting in strong, you know, know, results at the office?
[00:02:57] Speaker B: That's the problem. It was. So I was getting rewarded for it and all the benefits that you expect from that. So on the surface, it felt like everything was going great. It was incredible advice. I was winning.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Well, same thing with family, right? Because you're putting 100% in your family. So it also feels like that's going really well too, right?
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Coaching the kids, making sure I, you know, I'd literally take the red eye out on a Monday. I'd have practice. I coached all my kids in basketball, one in football. Take the red eye out on a Monday. We practice Monday, Thursday, Friday. I'd get back Thursday, Thursday in time for practice, at practice. Thursday, Friday, game Saturday, do the family time on Sunday, you know, whatever I could. Then I'd be back to it again.
[00:03:33] Speaker C: I mean, it seems like. It seems like you're killing it. I mean, so what's the.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: What's the problem?
[00:03:37] Speaker C: That sounds awesome. Sounds like you're doing a great job.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: It's just one of those things where I actually. When you look back, I mean, when I was in it, I really don't thought I was killing it in both ways too. I had this saying. You talk about really bad advice. I had the saying, the saying. I tell people, like, anybody can be successful in business if that's all you did. And anybody could be successful being a dad if that's all you did was that. So I would tell people all that. The key is how we balance it. And I was the worst at it because I just.
I would try and make everything happen too fast when I was with the family, try and go to that same speed as when I was at work. And the problem is, is. Is work's always waiting for you. Family isn't always waiting for you. Work's always waiting for you.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: When did this mindset take hold? Like, what. Describe for me when this was and, you know, kind of what your.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: When I was in college, and then after I had a real successful career as a track athlete, it was an all American in University of Colorado, and that's all I ever planned on doing and was on that trajectory. So I ended up getting hurt like many of us did back then. I wasn't able to continue that, so I had to. Had to get a real job. But when it really started to happen is when we. We decided to have a family. So my wife and I had been married five years, and I was. My career was really starting to take off. But the catalyst was we had our second child, and my wife was an executive at IBM. And she said, you know what? I don't want to go back to work. I, I still kid her about this. She says, she doesn't say these words, but she did. She said. I said, well, what are we going to do? You have a great income. How are we going to replace it? She said, you're going to have to sell more stuff, some more stuff.
And so it really, it was. Even when I say it now, my ego flares because it was like a pride, really prideful for me to go, yeah, I got it handled. And it really felt like being an athlete again, like, I'll just go muscle this out and I will take care of everybody. And. And I replaced all of her income in the first year. All the relationships that I just, you know, did not pay attention to with friends, some of my siblings, you know, I. I just lost touch with a lot of people because I only had time for work and family. Right. My family.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: So is that the danger there of the. Putting the. All of yourself when you're at work, in work and then all of yourself at home with your family is there's no other time for, like, personal things like friendships and that kind of thing?
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's definitely part of it. One of the biggest dangers is you. You can fall into this role of being a martyr, like, really enjoying the fact that you're taking care of everybody. And so then you start to believe that that is my, my role in life. Like, I just got to take care of everybody. Time for me to be happy or do what I, what I want to do, just do what makes everybody else happy. And then when you do that, you start to see the world differently. You know, it's. You start to. The smallest thing, you start to go, well, that, that seems really ungrateful for them to say that because you're like, well, why are you not worshiping me? I'm the martyr taking care of everybody. So it can really. It can really throw you off track.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: That's interesting. You're using the choice of word. Martyr.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: You start off it, it. You actually justify it by think you're doing things for other people. But really it is. It's all about your own ego. And I think that's the part that when I look back, even as I said I was preparing for this, it sort of got me depressed, looking back, saying how much my ego was in play, that all I was trying to do. In my mind I would justify it by saying I'm taking care of everybody. And that might have been the end result, but really it was about my ego and what I could accomplish. And watch me go and how I can make everything happen for everybody. Watch me. Aren't I important?
[00:07:03] Speaker C: So, like, you're doing really well at work and your family, your family, your home life isn't necessarily suffering because you're, you're kind of there, you're doing things. So what's the problem?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: It's huge problems. Embarrassed to say this, I never went to one parent teacher conference. I remember traveling and have one of my kids, my youngest one, really sick with pneumonia. Just a baby. Couldn't cancel my traveling. I'm overseas. And so those are the things that even now happen is we'll. We'll as a family start to relive something that happened. And I, I don't remember it. You know, candidly, I don't remember it because I wasn't there. I don't remember that person that being sick at that time. I don't remember that situation because my wife was great at letting me compartmentalize. Like, I got this handled. You go handle work. I thought I was doing a great job. You know, I thought I was the model for every dad, but.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: But I wasn't truly complete compartmentalization with some success on it at work and at home. But why do you think that doesn't work long term?
[00:08:00] Speaker B: You can only go so long with this extreme compartmentalization where you start to, to realize that you, you're this whole person and you gotta have both of those interactions happening. You know, it takes you a while to realize that being present is what's key. So that interruption during the day that someone says, hey, somebody's got a problem at school and you get that phone call, that's a, that's something good you can handle, you can get in and out of. When you compartmentalize, it's almost like. It's like taking a shortcut is what I realized. I thought it Was really. It's because of my discipline. It's like I'm taking a shortcut because I don't have to think about anything but business or anything but family at that time.
And you end up feeling more like robotic in the work that you do. I found this, especially on my personal life, just end up like my obligations. I just, I started to see my obligations the same way I was seeing my work. Got to get this and get this kid to practice, coach this team, and all the enjoyment just gets sapped out.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: Well, that's not how family works either. You know what I mean? Kids don't get sick on your schedule or it needs your time on your schedule or anything. Do you have any, any stories about how, like, you know, kids try to reach out to you on your, on your time and you're like, oh, no, I don't even know how to do this.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, even, even today. And I, I have this great relationship with all three of my boys who are growing up. Even today, if they just want to have a conversation with me. It really bothers me, by the way, but they'll have, they'll text me ahead of time. Dad, do you have 10 minutes tonight? You know, like, get on my schedule. All. I'm like, I respond, call me anytime. Right? But they still are just really wired that I can't interrupt him during the day.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Sam, for years I've heard people talking about work life balance. But now having this conversation with you, it almost feels like they were talking about work life, compartmentalization. And I've always felt like those that are more complete in their life, living happier lives, living more successful lives, have found a way to make work and personal one in the same. More of an integration. Is that what you ended up finding for yourself? That was important, or was it something different?
[00:10:09] Speaker B: It's exactly what I would say. What I ended up battling to continue to find. I certainly have not mastered it. You know, in, in our, our whole purpose statement of Vistage, we sell, we say, helping high integrity leaders make great decisions that benefit their companies, their families and their communities.
I came up with that purpose statement because high integrity comes from. Integrity comes from the word integer, which is whole. Like whole person, and trying to really be that whole person. That's where I see dissonance happens to us as leaders. Each of us being one of them is that we try and do this compartmentalization.
And where the dissonance happens is that we're really a whole human being. We have all these things happening in our Lives that connect. Right. I might be having a bad day at the office because I got something bad happen at home or. Or vice versa. And we're not robots. We got to be able to pull that together and be human beings. Where I think, like 20 years ago, I'm embarrassed if. If I had a meeting with you and you had something going on in your personal life, I'm embarrassed. I wouldn't have even asked. 25 years, I wouldn't be even asked. You know, and if. If you would have said you had a personal issue, I would have literally said to myself, I. Oh, man, he's soft. That's what I would have said. Like, soft. Yeah, Yeah. I just know that's who I was instead of, like, now I can be. I'm such. I'm still working on, but I'm a lot better leader. What I understand I'm dealing with a whole person, and people understand they're dealing with the whole person.
[00:11:31] Speaker C: Do you lose any of that success that you were seeing when you do add that personal emotion to your job?
[00:11:38] Speaker B: What a great question.
Oh, man.
My wife always reminds me because she'll go, yeah, I know. I know you feel bad about that, but it worked. And she mean, you know, in terms of, like, it worked career wise. But I don't believe that. I feel like that was something I absolutely believed first. You know, if you're allowing that kind of softness to get into your leadership style, you can't be successful. I completely have thrown that out. I've met some incredible leaders through Vistage, through other friends, through board directors that manage all of that and are more successful than me. I have thrown away. You can be a whole person the whole time, be happy, enjoy it, and still be successful.
There was a one CEO of a famous company I worked at. Do you guys remember Kinkos?
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: So the CEO of Kinkos was a guy named Paul Orfale. I ran sales for Kinkos earlier in my career, and he said this thing that when I first started, I thought was stupid, and now I say it all the time.
He would say, hire nice people.
I'd be like, oh, yeah.
I mean, come on, you got to do more than that.
What are their skills? Give me the assessment. And he'd say, just hire nice people.
And literally I find myself saying that now to people like, what kind of people should I have? Nice people.
And you surround yourself with nice people. It's amazing how fun your day can be and how much more energy you get out of that kind of leadership, helping those people succeed.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: This sounds more like, upon reflection, that it's not about compartmentalization. It's more about sort of this homeostasis, right? This constant state of being in that mindset. What does balance look like for you today?
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Great question.
Now, what it really means is, it means like just being present in every conversation. And I, I can do it now. And I feel proud about that. I can now. I can have a phone call with my wife today about an issue she's working on at the house right now, and I can be focused and give her all my attention right now. I can do that in the middle of the day, and that's what it feels like. And then when I'm home, we can be having a great family conversation. There could be a business issue that pops up. I can go handle that without suddenly be sucked into it for the rest of the evening. I can go take care of that for 20 minutes and come back. And like, even when I say that to you guys, it makes me feel happy doing that. Like, it doesn't. I'm not on this stressful run of compartmentalizing my life. Like, everything flows together and it feels like a really good. The word to use homeostasis feels really good.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: That's the work life balance, I think that people are trying to get to right now. And you were just like, it's almost like the way that basketball is now. Nobody wants to watch it because they've sort of figured out how to do it perfectly, which is sort of annoying to watch. And it's the same thing with like your hyper. Compartmentalization. Okay, I figured out how to do this 100% here, 100% there, but that's actually not right either. It's this complete integration like you said, within that. So when you made that shift, what did you. What did you start to see? Like, what positives came out?
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Bunch of things when, when I made that is, I. I just found out for me that I actually, even though I had. It took a while to believe it, I was actually more effective there. There was a, A statement. I. I had the pleasure of interviewing the former CEO of Pepsi, Indra Nui, and she made this statement that she. I asked her about her regrets and she said that she tried to do everything a hundred percent.
And she said like 95% was good, it was enough. And what I found from that, because that's how I think now, is I'm actually better. So rather than over preparing, over compartmentalizing, I leave room for much more spontaneity.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: I love that. 95% is enough. That's, you know, I'm a CPA by trade, Sam, and a perfect score on the CPA exam back in the day was 75% because it meant you didn't study too much, but it also meant you studied just enough because you passed.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Right?
[00:15:22] Speaker A: So people that were getting 90s on all the parts, I was like, man, you. That's not. That's not a better score than 75. 75.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: So that's what happens in. In business a lot, too, is we. We think we gotta, you know, prepare 100%. And when you compartmentalize, like I used to do, is even if you had time, like, you were. You were 75% prepared, and you can now have time with family, you're like, no, no, I got to get to 100%.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Mine also be a security blanket. Right? It's like a way of ensuring or securing the outcome. Right. Versus being okay, that the outcome might not be what you thought it was. Right. That. That is. That part of it is just trying to control the outcome.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Man, you. Sounds like you had a debrief with my wife before this.
Yes. The only goal I had when I was young was to be, you know, a US Champion and then an Olympic champion. That's what I wanted. 5,000 meters. So when that fell apart for me, I. I just thought, you know, if I don't keep working hard here, this could fall apart, too. And I. One of the things I used to brag about as well as I'd say, I mean, this is, you know, only 10 years ago, I'd say, I go to the office every day pretending like, just like, when I grew up, we had no money. I pretend like I have no money at all. So I can just. And when one day someone said to me, why do you do that?
Like, what do you mean? You know, I'm not impressing you with how competitive I am? And. No, you know, like, why don't you go in there happy with what you've accomplished and enjoy it? I'm like, good point. That's like, sometimes as an athlete, you. You love to think about how hard you work, how much more you can take than anyone else, and that's what. What sort of defines you. It doesn't help you being a successful, certainly not successful father and a balanced human being.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Do you think the general public perceives this worst advice you ever got to be true?
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Good question.
I think people believe it's a shortcut. Just focus here for a couple months. Forgetting all the shrapnel you're Leaving behind, you know, all the people that are in your life, it doesn't work for them. And, and it's the most selfish, egotistical thing we can do.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: When, when you see people today that have that same mindset or that are talking to you about the importance of that same mindset, what do you tell them?
[00:17:33] Speaker B: What I do, first of all is I listen a lot better. Rather than starting with the fact that I must know everything, I've got it figured out. So please listen to me because that, that's what I used to do. And then I, I really work hard to not give them my experience.
But the only counsel I'll give is that I think we can be this one holistic person with the new generation.
[00:17:55] Speaker C: You know, a lot of the gripe that we have it with talking about Gen Z's is that we say, oh, well, you know, they're all about the work life balance and they only want to, like, they want to have fun and they don't want to work hard, they don't want to do things. Are you saying that they're right?
[00:18:08] Speaker B: I can't believe it. Yes. Here's what I say, actually. I say, I say they're smarter than us. I say all the time when people go, they don't, they don't want to work hard, you know, they care about, you know, their happiness right now they're asking questions about whether or not, you know, they feel fulfilled at work. You know, and I, I used to roll my eyes at that. Now I go, they're smarter than us. They got to figure it out. Like they're after happiness now rather than, I think I will have my ass kicked for another 50 years. And as soon as my ass is kicked really bad and I've saved enough money, I'm going to be happy. Now they're doing it day one.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: What is it about leadership or success that is so wrapped into grinding it out at all costs?
[00:18:50] Speaker B: God, what a great question. Because it's. Every CEO in the country and world is nodding their head to that. I think at its root, what I worry about and I think about, and in my case and many other people I spent time talking to about this, I think at its core, it's really about our egos. I think that's what's so powerful. When you get around, I mean, you've done this for 25 years, you get around room of 12, 13 other CEOs and one starts demonstrating different characteristics, you know, humility, vulnerability, starts talking about the things they screwed up on.
It's Just amazing. It's almost like the, the magic code of being with leaders. As soon as someone talks about where they've screwed up, everybody jumps in. Nobody's interested when you talk about your conquest. They're just waiting to talk about their next conquest. Well, let me tell my story. Well, when everybody starts talking about their screw ups, they're the best conversations in the world. And you learn so much. Our egos take us down this, this wrong road of trying to prove that we're important and significant.
[00:19:54] Speaker C: So at the beginning of the episode, you said you got a lot of bad advice, but this, this is the worst. What do you like? Why did you choose to talk about this on the show? Why is this the worst advice you ever got?
[00:20:05] Speaker B: It's because the one that I, it's just the one I have the most regret on when I look back and I mean, I say the most regret and at one time the most passion. Like this was what I would talk about. Like this how you do it, guys. And I tell young salespeople, sales managers and all these people trying to, you know, follow in my footsteps. What you got to do when you hear you only focus on business at home, that's all you focus on. And I mean, I would have people grinding to, to prove how hard they could work for me. And so it's just, it's regrets.
[00:20:37] Speaker C: We might have somebody else on the show, Sean, talking about the worst advice I ever got. And it's the same thing and it's going to be from Sam.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: I had this boss, he was the worst boss. And here's what he ended up doing.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: Here's what he told me.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: I could say that, well, well, you.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: Certainly have the most regret about this is the worst advice you ever got.
I don't regret being a part of Vistage for 25 years and I certainly don't regret reaching out to you and asking you to be a guest on the podcast. Because your worst advice you ever got is certainly very relatable to a lot of us, a lot of leaders out there. And I know our listening audience is going to benefit from you sharing your story. So from the bottom of my heart, Sam, thanks for joining us today and really sharing your story.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Thanks for having me and I'm really, really appreciate the time. It was a great conversation. Thank you.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: You know, jb, what stuck with me is how Sam said compartmentalization felt like a shortcut, but really it was just robbing him of presence. He looked like the perfect family man on the outside, but even his kids, you know, still text him to schedule time. That. That. That kind of hit me.
[00:21:43] Speaker C: You know, that's a. That's a gut punch, and it's a reminder that being physically there isn't the same as actually being present.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Exactly. And what I appreciated is that he didn't just leave it there. He talked about shifting to integration, living as a whole person, not a split or divided one. That. That's advice a lot of leaders need to hear right now, especially when culture still rewards the grind.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: Yeah, my favorite part was when he agreed with me on the Gen Z. You know, everybody doesn't want to work hard. And Sam's like, no, no, they're actually smarter than us. Like, you know, they're chasing happiness on day one instead of waiting 50 years until they're burned out to try to find it.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the kind of perspective you get when someone's willing to be vulnerable about their mistakes. And Sam gave a master class in that today. Sam, thank you for joining us.
And for everyone listening, thank you again for being a part of our listening audience. This has been another episode of the worst advice I ever got. We'll see you next time.
