Get an MBA - Kirk Halpern

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hey, everybody. And welcome to the worst advice I ever got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer, JB. And today our guest is my good friend, Kirk Halpern. Kirk, the founder and CEO of Farmers and Fishermen Purveyors, is an award winning entrepreneurial businessman with a worldwide prominence in the meat and seafood industry. Well known for building an employee centered culture and purposeful workplace, Kirk was named by the Atlanta Business Chronicle as one of Atlanta's most admired CEO's in 2023. Kirk, thank you so much for joining us today. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Shawn, thank you very much for having me. [00:00:41] Speaker C: So, tell us about the worst advice you ever got. [00:00:43] Speaker B: The worst advice I ever got was. [00:00:46] Speaker D: You need to get an MBA. [00:00:48] Speaker C: Well, I think a lot of people would generally think, what's wrong with getting an MBA? Let's expand on this a little bit. [00:00:55] Speaker B: And let me qualify it. So, to any of my friends that. [00:00:58] Speaker D: Have an MBA, I'm not insulting you. [00:01:00] Speaker B: There's no negativity. Please don't be defensive in hearing this. But for all those that don't have an MBA, what? I hope that in our conversation, this becomes empowering to them, because I believe to be a really strong entrepreneurial leader in business, you're best suited, as I. [00:01:20] Speaker D: Was, by not getting an MBA. [00:01:23] Speaker B: I believe an MBA ruins the likelihood of your ability to be successful in entrepreneurial business. It doesn't help you. [00:01:31] Speaker D: It hurts you. [00:01:32] Speaker C: Who was telling you to get an MBA? [00:01:34] Speaker D: Everybody in the world tells you to get an MBA. [00:01:37] Speaker B: I mean, there are certain things that you're told in life, oh, you're going to go into business. Well, you need to get a master's in business. No, that's bad advice. And in fact, if you really look at it, Sean, and one of the things. Things that to some extent I'll even say offends me is that when people think that in order to be successful in business, a requirement in order to be successful in business is to get an MBA. And I'm of the view, and I know there's very few of us out there saying this, no, stop. Hold off. Don't do that. Go in a different direction, because I believe an NBA does not prepare you in the beyond to be tremendously successful in business. [00:02:22] Speaker E: Is it more what it doesn't do or what it does do? [00:02:25] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. [00:02:27] Speaker E: I love it. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Okay. So let me. If I can share my truth, and. [00:02:33] Speaker D: My truth is based on my personal journey. [00:02:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Let's hear about what your experience was because you were told, get an MBA, what happened? [00:02:39] Speaker B: Okay. So I have been successful now, in three businesses in the course of my career, I actually didn't get an MBA. [00:02:50] Speaker D: I actually got a law degree. [00:02:52] Speaker B: And what I would tell you is, had I not gotten a duke law degree, I would have failed. I would have failed because my second. [00:03:02] Speaker D: Company was birthed in litigation. [00:03:05] Speaker B: The reason I was successful in launching. [00:03:07] Speaker D: My third company was because of the legal training and the legal background I got. [00:03:14] Speaker B: But if I can, let me share. [00:03:15] Speaker D: With you my story. [00:03:16] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:03:16] Speaker D: Okay. So I grew up in my maternal grandfather's produce business. And what I watched as I was growing up, because I would go in in the mornings with them from when I was eight years old, on Saturday mornings. And I would work on the docks, in the coolers, loading trucks, and I watched, and I listened. [00:03:38] Speaker B: And by the way, the best degree. [00:03:40] Speaker D: You can get is watching your grandfather, your grandmother. That's really where education comes from. I ended up going to law school. I practiced law for a year and a day, and I hated it. I grew up always wanting to build. [00:03:55] Speaker B: And building to means building a business. [00:03:58] Speaker D: So I left law after a year and a day, and I went to work in my father's business, bucket Beef company. And we grew that from $20 million to ten years. We were doing $135 million in sales with unlimited capital. We grew to $523 million in sales. I don't want to say I picked a fight, but I picked a fight, and I left and started what I call my second company, Halpern steak and seafood. I ended up filing what's called a declaratory judgment action, which is court declared, this is unenforceable. These post employment restrictions, they came in. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Over the top, overwhelming. [00:04:38] Speaker D: They would have four attorneys in the room. I'd have one attorney. There were so many aspects that I. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Could have been tripped up that I could have lost the case. One sentence, one term, one word, one action. You could lose a case. But because I was legally trained, I. [00:04:58] Speaker D: Knew where the lines were, and I never stepped over the line. [00:05:01] Speaker B: Then the reality is, after my post employment restrictions, I started farmers and fishermen. [00:05:06] Speaker D: Purveyors with my son. And the company has grown tremendously. [00:05:11] Speaker C: I think that's great context for everyone to hear, because they see how you needed something other than what I presume you would say. An MBA would have educated you or taught you right, which would have not benefited you through, let's call it the volatility of your now three decade, three and a half decade career. Fair. [00:05:32] Speaker B: Fair. And here's the point. [00:05:35] Speaker D: So why was I successful? [00:05:38] Speaker B: And I say that with passion, but I also say it modestly. It was because, one, I was a disrupter. An MBA doesn't teach you how to be a disruptor. An MBA teaches you, here's a whole bunch of analysis. You know, data points, and you try to figure out what this means. I am a leader who believes that. [00:06:01] Speaker D: The answers are on the street. [00:06:03] Speaker B: The answers are at the front. A war should not be conducted by the Pentagon. The war should be conducted by the. [00:06:09] Speaker D: Guys at the front. [00:06:10] Speaker B: That's why Colin Powell and Schwarzkopf were successful in Gulf War one. I'm a market disrupter. What does that mean? It means that I'm going to go out into the market, and I'm going to go look and see. I'm always amazed by people that will hire consultants, and the consultants will then go out and go talk to your employees. No. Jump in a truck with one of your valued employees who've been with you for three years, five years, seven years. See what he thinks. The other thing that's critically important, and I don't even know if there's a subclass within an MBA, but if you want to ask me what business is about, it's about two things, your ability to lead and your ability to sell. No one ever says, oh, you know, what am I doing it? [00:06:59] Speaker D: What am I learning? Well, I'm learning how to sell. [00:07:01] Speaker B: No, they talk about learning about marketing and different stuff like that. If you want to be successful in business, you got to be able to. [00:07:11] Speaker D: Go out and sell. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Whether that means you're selling your customers or prospective customers, whether it means that. [00:07:16] Speaker D: You'Re selling a potential supplier as to why he or she should be doing. [00:07:20] Speaker B: Business with you, you're selling your sales force or you're selling your operations team. To go ahead and execute up, you have to be a motivator. Well, how are you going to motivate? By having an MBA. How's that help? [00:07:33] Speaker D: I don't see it. [00:07:34] Speaker C: The MBAs that you see young people getting, you see people graduate with mbas. Where does it fit? Because there's so many people have an NBA. [00:07:44] Speaker B: All right. I have two nephews, and I love them both. One nephew in his first year at school, unfortunately, he had lost his dad right before he went out to school. [00:07:55] Speaker D: Went out to Arizona, and honestly, he failed out. [00:07:58] Speaker B: And we said, come on, come to Atlanta and we'll teach you the business. We gave him the worst jobs you can have. Skinning, outside, scratch. I mean, just yuck, yuck jobs. Within ten years, he's running our Florida division. After I left the company, he was recruited by a $2 billion publicly traded company and he's running an $850 million operation with over 1000 employees. [00:08:27] Speaker D: The guy is amazing. Why? [00:08:29] Speaker B: Because he's got work ethic, coaches, coachability, and he can sell. I have another nephew. I love him. He got one of those impressive mbas. His starting pay was triple what my other nephew's starting pay is, and he goes in and he consults. [00:08:48] Speaker D: I wouldn't listen to a 26 year old. [00:08:51] Speaker B: I don't see it. And I'm not saying that if you get an MBA, you're not going to be successful, but I think folks like me, if given a choice between hiring on Harvard, NBA, and a guy who played football for University of Notre Dame, I'm taking the Notre Dame guy. [00:09:08] Speaker E: What have you already got? An NBA. What happens now? [00:09:12] Speaker B: Try to unlearn some of the things that you were taught. I am a storyteller by my nature. So my son was at Tulane. He's in a business class, not an MBA, but he's in a business class, and he's telling me about the class. First thing I do is I say, tell me about the teacher. What business did that teacher start? Nothing. Those that get, as in school teach, those that get B's get blank. Those that get C's are. Those are the guys who are tremendously successful. [00:09:38] Speaker F: Isn't that funny? [00:09:39] Speaker B: So, how do you learn business from somebody who didn't do business? [00:09:42] Speaker F: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:43] Speaker C: No, it's a very fair point. Generally, the things that students learn in MBA programs, is there any value to bring that into your entrepreneurial, spirited company to do certain things, or is it just not valuable to your business at all? [00:09:58] Speaker B: Well, there's a definite value, but because you have an MBA, you can be a trusted advisor to me, but you're not gonna be the leader of my company. [00:10:09] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Okay. I believe that every year going forward, change in the marketplace is gonna happen faster, quicker. So I founded farmers and fishermen with my son Benjen on July 1, 2019, and I knew I would have a little bit of a controlled burn during. [00:10:31] Speaker D: The first six months. [00:10:32] Speaker B: I get to February 2020, I'm feeling pretty good. March of 2020, I start sticking my chest out, and then, boom, the market drops like crazy. All restaurants are closed on Thursday, which means on Thursday, I'm going to lose 97% of my customers and my inventory is going to go upside down. But what happened is my wife had reached out to five or six of her friends because there was no food in the grocery stores and had offered, hey, if you need something, I'll go. [00:11:02] Speaker D: To the plant, I'll get it, and. [00:11:04] Speaker B: I'll bring back to you. So I pulled into the driveway in my house and I saw a bunch of my wife's friends around where she's getting them food. I said to myself, we're taking care of my wife's family, who's taking care of the community. Because quite candidly, I did not see. [00:11:21] Speaker D: Leadership coming from the political class or. [00:11:24] Speaker B: The big business class. But I asked myself a defining question, and I don't mean this to sound as a masculine, because this is how I phrased it to myself. I said, who am I as a man? At the time, I was chairman of the board of goodwill, North Georgia. Our mission is to put people to work. How can I be chairman of goodwill and then roll on my employees? And in 13 hours, I developed a business plan that I was going to shift my complete business into home delivery. [00:11:52] Speaker D: At the time, I made a pledge to my employee. [00:11:56] Speaker B: I said, there will be no firing, no furloughs, no reduction of pay, no reduction of benefits. And as we sell our way through this, as we sell our way through this, I'm going to hire my employees, spouses and family members who got knocked out from COVID Now, in contrast, meanwhile, my multimillion dollar, multibillion dollar competitors just took their product, stuck it in the freezer, terminated or furloughed their employees, and they did analysis. They did the type of analysis you learn to do as MBA. My actions, my moves, was the type of analysis that you do when you're. [00:12:38] Speaker D: On a battlefield, okay? [00:12:41] Speaker B: You adapt. You improvise. [00:12:43] Speaker C: Adapt or die. [00:12:44] Speaker B: You overcome. The reality is, that's not what you learn in a masters of business program. You learn that in the military. You learn that in sports where the head coach grabs your face mask, pulls you closer and says, do not allow the other team to run around that line, okay? That's where leadership, in my opinion, comes from. [00:13:07] Speaker C: Why do you think stories like yours are not taught in MBA programs? [00:13:14] Speaker B: Because those aren't the teachers. Those aren't the folks. I really think that entrepreneurial business is all about moving fast and quick. I think you learn that through other channels. Again, no disrespect to my friends who have an MBA, but leadership's going to not come from an MBA. Leadership's going to come. Were you in the military? Man, that's great. Were you on a sports program? [00:13:42] Speaker D: Great. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Where you may be in the kitchen of a restaurant, the best chef owner operators are folks who started as a dishwasher. I know of no. Tremendously successful restaurateur who, when you say, how did you become great? [00:13:59] Speaker D: Say, well, I got my MBA at blank. [00:14:02] Speaker C: I see some businesses take young people, put them in programs, future leader programs. I presume you align with that thinking. [00:14:12] Speaker B: I think that's absolutely correct. Marriott. Marriott Hotels is a great source of job entry. And the track record is that there's about seven steps for you to then become, for you to become a general manager where you're making very nice. Very nice and great money. There is no requirement, let alone not for an MBA. There's not even a college requirement for you to be a general manager of a Marriott hotel. That's the way to learn. [00:14:42] Speaker F: Yeah, yeah. [00:14:44] Speaker C: You've been through the school of hard knocks. We've all fallen down. But how do people learn it prior to having to get their ass kicked, so to speak? [00:14:52] Speaker B: And I'm glad you violated the rule by using the curse word. Cause I was. You're welcome to. I was trying to be very careful. Here's. So now I'm gonna speak to the moms and parents of the college kids within this audience. I believe one of the areas where universities fail is they fail on teaching kids how to interview and what to interview for. The kids aren't taught. What are the right questions? The questions that you want to know is, tell me about the company. Is this a growth company or is it a flat company? Because if it's a flat company, then you got to wait for other people to retire or die off. If it's a growth company, is elevation of position dependent on seniority some form of DEi? Or is it based on pure ability and performance? Do you have a CEO that you believe in? And then how am I going to get mentored? How am I going to learn? How is my opinion going to be viewed? And let me give you a great. [00:15:57] Speaker D: Story, if I can. [00:15:59] Speaker B: When I was a first year associate at a law firm, there was an issue and I found a US Supreme Court case dead on point. I mean, you couldn't make up how accurate this thing fit. I walk into the senior partner, it's like, here, I got this. And the question was, well, what is Blankvake? In other words, the fifth year associate? And what I realized is I would always be wrong in relationship to that person that was more senior to me. Now, in contrast, if you're in a sales or a sales led and sales driven organization, it doesn't matter if you've only been with the company for one year, three years, six years, if you got one individual and they're writing $150,000 a business a week, and the other person's writing $20,000 a week, even if they've been there for multiple years more. No disrespect to the individual's writing 20,000. That $150,000 individual's opinion should matter more. Now, that's what the real world is and what someone, when you're interviewing, that's the type of stuff you want to figure out. [00:17:09] Speaker C: Do you think youre belief is shared by entrepreneurial, bootstrap business leaders across the board about the value, or lack of. [00:17:19] Speaker F: Value of an NBA? [00:17:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:17:21] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:17:21] Speaker C: I tend to agree with you. [00:17:23] Speaker B: And there's also a qualifier. I mean, again, I made the comment earlier. I'd hire someone out in Notre Dame, a Notre Dame football player over at Harvard. NBA. I believe that most employers, given two. [00:17:36] Speaker D: Candidates, one's coming out of an Ivy League school and one's coming out of. [00:17:41] Speaker B: An SEC school, you hire the person. SEC school, you have a relatability with your frontline employees, your managers or supervisors, as opposed to what one tends to think in a pyramid driven, a pyramid shaped company. The more that a business is flat is, the more likely that business is going to thrive, especially in tough times. And unfortunately, I think we're facing tough times. And so I'd love to see more leadership coming out of folks who are. Who learn the day to day stuff. And having an MBA doesn't necessarily help you. [00:18:19] Speaker D: And again, I think it hurts you. [00:18:20] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:18:21] Speaker E: Why are so many people getting MBAs? I have a thousand friends who got MBAs. [00:18:25] Speaker C: These universities are busting at the seams. They are. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Right. Okay. Clearly, what I'm saying is a contrast to what's being told. [00:18:33] Speaker C: Yeah. It's very. Your opinion is very contrarian to the general viewpoints. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Right. Okay. I'm giving you a disruptors. I'm a disrupter in the marketplace. I used to believe that if you took relatively smart people and they all have the same inputted data, that everybody, when you hear the same data, would get to the same answer. And what I learned, and I didn't learn this until I was in my forties, is. No. A person who is an accountant thinks like an accountant. A person who's an attorney thinks like an attorney. A person who's big business thinks big business, and a person who comes out of entrepreneurial business thinks entrepreneurial business. [00:19:13] Speaker C: Kirk, I've got to ask for those that got an MBA, and they hear this and they're moved by it. They're struck by it. What would you advise them to do well. [00:19:24] Speaker B: Three things. First, don't egg my house on Halloween. Okay? [00:19:27] Speaker C: That's number one, we won't give out your address. [00:19:29] Speaker B: Okay? Number two, the specific advice I would give them is to then do an unnatural stretch. Do something contrarian. Make sure that you're not being siloed with just folks that have that same vantage point. Okay. Third point, the folks I'm really speaking to this, Sean, and the reason I agree to do this with you and thank you for the opportunity. Anyone who gets an MBA, all they've been told is how smart they are and how successful they're going to be. You rarely tend to have people that have a lack of confidence that have an MBA. And one of the things that I find disheartening is you could have somebody so successful in their field, but when you talk to them, they have some insecurity because they'll say, well, I didn't graduate. So what I'm really trying to do is reach those individuals that say, you know what? My nephew failed out of college, and now he's probably gonna really dislike the fact I've smoked him out. But he's over an $800 million division and he is tremendously successful. The challenge is there's less of those folks out there, but we are out there, and there is tremendous opportunity for people coming up. But if you are now speaking to CEO's and leaders, when you're looking around to say, what does my table look like of the people that are around my table? If you're starting to go around that table and everybody's got an MBA, then stop. Go get somebody else that's coming out of what's critically important. And most of the time, the right answer is going to be within your own company. You just got to make sure you're touching them. And that's why you should have a flat organization. [00:21:23] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:21:24] Speaker C: Well, Kirk, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to share your story and what you've learned from it. And just the worst advice you ever got. I can't thank you enough. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Great. Thank you. Farmers and fishermen, purveyors, farmersandfishermen.com. we do. I gotta do because you gotta always sell something. [00:21:45] Speaker C: Sell, brother, sell. [00:21:46] Speaker B: Okay. We got a great corporate gift box program. Holidays are coming around. It's a great gift. We're a local company. The money, the revenues are staying within the community. We take a lot of pride in what we do, and we just appreciate everybody's support. [00:22:01] Speaker C: Awesome. Thank you, Kirk. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Thank you, JB, that's a truly conflicting episode, because on its surface, an NBA provides more education, more preparation for your career. But clearly, Kirk doesn't see it that way. [00:22:16] Speaker E: Oh, yeah. I love when guests will stick to their guns like this. He said, if you had. If I had a gun to my head, I wouldn't hire a Harvard MBA. [00:22:25] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:22:26] Speaker A: He looks at education coming from watching others working hard. I really like what he had to say about watching his grandparents, you know, working hard, and that's where he learned the most. And I think he's got a great point there. [00:22:37] Speaker E: Oh, absolutely. If you. I mean, he says, when you get an MBA, what you're learning is how to analyze problems, not how to deal with problems. I think that's the big thing. He was like, I want to be a disruptor. If I want to be a leader in my space, I want to be a leader in any space. I can't analyze. I need to act. I need to know what I'm doing, and I need to do it strategically. [00:22:56] Speaker A: To be a leader, at least of his company. You really can't do that if you're following the script of what you learn with an NBA. [00:23:05] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, he did stick to his guns, which are. You know, he. He did say there's some value in it. We asked him a couple of times, you know, what, if you already have an NBA, what do you do? And he said, try to unlearn what you've learned. I mean, really, I just. I. Like I said, I just. I love it when people stick to their guns. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah, he certainly did. And, look, I've known Kurt for years, and his pivot in less than a day to form his company during COVID was the really the main backup for his worst advice that I took. I mean, the decisions that he made was not something he learned in the classroom. He learned it from the daily grind is adapting. His improvising is overcoming. He just basically said, look, I'm not learning that in a classroom from somebody. [00:23:45] Speaker E: That never led a business paralysis by analysis. And that's what an MBA can get you. [00:23:50] Speaker A: His questions that kids should ask when interviewing are some of the most unique and, frankly, mature things that I've ever heard. And if I had young people asking me those questions, I would be hiring them on the spot, just based upon the quality of the question. So, that's a great takeaway for young people. What Kirk had to say about approaching an interview and what to ask. [00:24:10] Speaker E: Absolutely. Always a little bit of good advice on the worst advice you ever got. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Yeah, even though it's the worst advice our guests ever got, you always walk away with some great advice, just like we got from Kirk in today's episode. And look, if if you're enjoying the podcast and walking away with some great pieces of advice by listening to other people's worst advice, do this for us. Tell your friends about the podcast. Let them listen into some of the episodes we've heard before. Share with them what some of your favorite episodes were so that they too, can benefit from this. [00:24:41] Speaker C: And look, we hope that you'll tune. [00:24:43] Speaker A: In next week when we come back to you with another great guest on the worst advice I ever got.