Don't Change Anything Your First Year - Dr. Phil Schroeder

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hey everybody, and welcome to the worst advice I ever got. I'm your host Sean Taylor, joined by my producer JB. And our guest today is doctor Phil Schrader. Phil is a senior pastor at Dunwoody United Methodist Church, one of the largest Methodist church congregations in the world. Phil graduated from the Wharton School of Finance, but feeling a call to ordained ministry, he moved to Atlanta to attend Emory University where he completed a dual degree master's program in both business and theology. Phil is the author of numerous books and has preached or taught in over 250 churches in the southeast. Phil, thanks for being with us today. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Thanks Sean. It's great to be here. [00:00:43] Speaker C: Phil, the reputation of this podcast is just to jump right in with both feet and just get right into it. So tell us about the worst advice you ever got. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Well, the worst advice I ever got was to not change anything in my first year in a new organization. [00:01:02] Speaker C: Why do you think you were receiving that advice? [00:01:06] Speaker B: I think I was just starting out and older pastors had been trained to be chaplains and to care for the people that were there. And so they wanted to honor the life ways of the people that were already there. And they really didn't see the mission field as their focus. And so their focus was caring for the people that were already there. [00:01:28] Speaker C: Right? Right. Talk just real briefly about how the Methodist church works and pastors, senior pastors serving at a church, because people may not understand that in the United Methodist. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Church we are sent in other churches, the local church may choose someone and call them to be there, but we're part of what's kind of an episcopal church, episcopal meaning bishop and the bishop and a group of people send you to a local church based on the needs of that local church and your gifts and graces. So you are like a stepbrother or an uncle that is sent in as opposed to someone that they have chosen. And it can be a little awkward because you don't know the area, you don't know the people, and you're sent there. So the idea, I think behind the advice was go and just observe for a year, pay attention, help understand who they are as opposed to going in and thinking you're there to change them, you're there to bring God to them. They already have God. You don't need to bring God to them. [00:02:33] Speaker C: Did you receive that advice like early in your career as a senior pastor. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Or has this come later? [00:02:39] Speaker C: What was the timing of? [00:02:40] Speaker B: It was from the very beginning and I've checked it out with some of my colleagues. They heard the same thing. I was talking to some people this week and I said, this is the worst advice I ever got as a pastor. And in the beginning. So you're freshly out of seminary, you're about to start your first appointment, and they don't want you to go in and tear things up. So they tell you, just don't change anything. [00:03:04] Speaker D: So it doesn't sound terrible. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Right. [00:03:06] Speaker E: Sounds kind of good advice. [00:03:07] Speaker C: It's kind of like, look, you're meant to observe first and learn. And so that generally feels like good advice. Let's talk about how it became bad advice or why it was bad advice. What's the issue there? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Well, I think what it does is it ignores context. It ignores life cycle. You don't know where that church is in its life cycle. You don't know what's going on in the larger community. And so just to blanketly say, don't change anything, for me, it was naive and was really a maintenance mindset. Go in and maintain what is there, as opposed to push people further into the mission. [00:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Caretake. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:03:51] Speaker C: When did you start feeling like, I can't follow this advice? [00:03:56] Speaker B: It hit me more slowly in my first church. It was a small country church out in the middle of nowhere, and trying to understand them was important, but there are things that have been neglected. The pastor before me had never invited anyone to join the church. He was uncomfortable with that. And so the church needed a shot in the arm. And so after being there for a couple months, I thought, some things are going to have to change in order for this church to be vital and to serve its community as opposed to just serving itself. [00:04:28] Speaker D: It has to change. And you didn't want to wait to change. Is that accurate? [00:04:34] Speaker B: You couldn't wait to change? I mean, I guess it was the Harley Davidson folks that said, if you continue what you've always done better, you'll fail faster in a new economy. [00:04:43] Speaker C: Talk about yourself a little bit. Do you find yourself now, looking back on it, to feel like you're more of a change agent? Or do you feel like, did it naturally conflict with who you are? [00:04:56] Speaker B: It was such a conflict with who I am. I tend to be a change agent. And what I didn't realize early on is the grief that comes with change. People don't resist change. They resist loss. And so with any change, whether it's a positive change, a new baby is in the house, you lose some of the freedom and the sleep that you once had, and because of the loss, that's what people resent or resist. It's not the change itself. Because if I tell you I'm giving you a raise, that's a positive change. People like change. I have come to be. Be the person that would take a vision and throw it out twice as far as anybody was even willing to consider. And then when they would meet me halfway, we had made progress. So I got to a church. It was called the Stark United Methodist Church. And I thought, that can't be the name of a church. It means empty, it means naked, it means nothing. Stark United Methodist. And to make it worse, it was in Butts county. [00:06:02] Speaker C: Wow. [00:06:02] Speaker B: And we lived on big Dam road. [00:06:04] Speaker C: Of course. Of course you did. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yes. Just up the road from the sack of Suds where they stole the can of tuna at my cousin Vinny. [00:06:12] Speaker C: Well, I'm not sure if we have a huge following yet at the Okmulgee, but when we do, they will relate directly to the sack of Suds. So you get placed in there. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:23] Speaker C: And this advice has been given to you? [00:06:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:28] Speaker C: What happens next? [00:06:29] Speaker B: Well, one of the things I told them is they probably needed to change the name of the church because people were not thinking, I want to go to Stark. We were on Lake Jackson, and I thought, what a better moniker. You know, what a better brand. Why don't we be the Lake Jackson United Methodist Church or the Stark United Methodist Church at Lake Jackson? And that didn't go well at all. It was good enough for our grandparents. It ought to be good enough for us. But what I did is I had them thinking about changing the name. And while they were over here concentrating on changing the name, I changed some other fundamental things about the life of the church that didn't make them as upset because they were over here worried about the name. [00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So if Phil's introducing, you know, six or seven things, and we really don't like these two, we might be willing to change on these other two or three. And then I'm assuming you begin to see some success, you can begin to see some process. And is there maybe a trust development. [00:07:28] Speaker A: That happens after that? [00:07:29] Speaker B: I think so. When people see that you're able to bear fruit, that you're able to stand behind what you're doing. We had a vacation Bible school that was only for children in the church, and my response was, let's cancel it. And they said, what do you mean, let's cancel it? I said, if you're just doing it for our people, it's not serving the mission field. So they said, what do you want to do? And I said, can we put a sign out front? We have an old sign here from, like, a yard sale. Let's redesign that and advertise vacation Bible school. Let's put up flyers around and just invite the community to be part of this outreach. [00:08:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:06] Speaker B: And they said, sure, let's try it. And then we had twice as many kids, and the church started to grow. And we needed to hire a nursery worker to welcome those kids on Sunday morning. And so they started to see the positive change. And when people start to fall in love with a church you've always loved, you've built credibility. [00:08:26] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's really two kind of two ways of looking at this. You're brought in, people don't necessarily expect you to change things. But there could have been scenarios where you were brought in with the intention of changing things. Cause something was broken. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Exactly. When I was sent to the Dunwood United Methodist Church, it was announced that I was heading there on March 1, 2022. [00:08:46] Speaker C: Weeks before. [00:08:47] Speaker D: Two weeks. Yeah. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Before the world shut down and changed. [00:08:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:51] Speaker B: And if we hadn't changed things, we were changing things every week, if not every day. [00:08:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Because we had to try and manage and hold a church together that couldn't meet in person. And because we couldn't meet in person, I had to spend my days making change, but inviting people into that change with me, people I hadn't even met, people I didn't know. And change was. Change was accelerated because of COVID Knowing. [00:09:22] Speaker C: That things had to change and embracing that change. How long have you been at Dunwoody now? [00:09:27] Speaker B: Almost four years. [00:09:28] Speaker C: How do you think that everybody sees the church now? [00:09:32] Speaker B: I think it allowed people to let go of some things. I think that there was a cleansing involved. People got down to the things that were really important, and so we were only able to do the things that were really important. [00:09:46] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a good point. Changing of the norm or this changing this dynamic had people get back to basics or had people get back to the three or four, whatever the top priorities were. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Exactly. And the things that weren't working or didn't need to be picked back up again. You know, there have been a few people saying, why aren't we doing that anymore? Why aren't we doing that anymore? Those sort of melted away during COVID When they melted away during COVID we didn't feel the need to pick them back up again. And instead of that hurting us, that made us leaner. And I think that people now are open to creative new things. I ask people. I ask people's advice when I visit with them, and I do that religiously now, they say, just keep doing what you're doing. [00:10:37] Speaker C: It's almost like it's a period of acceptance. [00:10:41] Speaker B: I think that we live in a world of gray and that people are searching for certainty. And it is a lot easier to grow a church or grow a youth group when you give people certainty. But when you honor the uncertainty and you help people navigate through difficulty and uncertainty, I always say that we don't always have the best answers all the time, but we can help you find better questions to help you to ask better questions as you try to navigate life. [00:11:14] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:11:14] Speaker D: Do you give the opposite advice now? If somebody says, hey, what should I do? I'm going to a new church, it's a great question. [00:11:21] Speaker C: You know, young people just getting started. [00:11:24] Speaker B: I tell them that they need to get as much information as possible. They need to study and listen as much as possible. But to spend the credits they have in the honeymoon, you have some credibility during the honeymoon period that you will never have again. And so spend some of those credits early on, people will forgive you in your naivete. [00:11:49] Speaker C: I like that. [00:11:50] Speaker B: The problem that I've had these last three and a half years is I've had three first years. [00:11:56] Speaker C: How so? [00:11:57] Speaker B: With COVID The first year we weren't even meeting in person. [00:12:01] Speaker C: Right? [00:12:02] Speaker B: The second year we were meeting in person and then no longer meeting in person. In and out, trying to navigate that. And this last year has just been a difficult year for myself and for my family and because of my own personal injuries and struggles and loss of my mother and my father in law, we've had to make a lot of adjustments in our own life. So I haven't had sort of a normal first year to take stock of. [00:12:30] Speaker C: I think we've all been going through a series of first years. If you stop and think about it. For sure, in the business, general business environment, everybody went fully remote, and it could have lasted a year in many cases. And then they went to hybrid. So that's a new adjustment. And now it's kind of like more back in the office. Some cases, it's been announced, I think coke ups or we're all back in the office permanently. So that's a new first year. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:12:57] Speaker C: So we're all kind of going through periods of change in intervals, you know, one year intervals. [00:13:04] Speaker B: You never got to take a breath to evaluate how things were going. You were just going on to the next thing. And I think that that's sort of the exhaustion that many people are experiencing right now. I'm sure you're seeing it in ways that I'm not, but you're seeing the exhaustion because people have never been able to take that breath and say, okay, how's that working? They've just had to go to the next thing. [00:13:28] Speaker C: I think people are afraid of change. I think people are afraid to instill it, to sort of force it upon people, and I think people are afraid to adopt it. That fear probably comes from worrying about that loss, like you talked about. How do we get people to overcome the fear of change? [00:13:45] Speaker B: Well, I think there is the stages of grief that go with that loss. You have anger, and a lot of times when you try to change something, you'll see that anger. And if you can take a step back, back from that anger and try to understand that it is about loss, it may not be about the change itself. It just may be that things are so different. There was a lot of anger during COVID Yeah, sure. And you saw that sort of anger. And if you can treat it with care as opposed to pushing back against the resistance, when you ask people to try and you know you're hurting right now, help me to understand what you're going through. Help me to understand why this has made you so angry. That's a very different thing than pushing back and telling people they shouldn't be angry. [00:14:35] Speaker C: Well, you invested in the relationship to help people overcome the fear of change, is what I hear you saying. [00:14:41] Speaker B: I think so. You know, I visited in 400 people's homes trying to help establish relationships so that I had the credibility to be able to make changes. I got to hear their stories and they got to hear mine. And when you know other people's stories, the changes don't seem as abrupt. [00:15:01] Speaker C: Look, you're our leader. We trust you're here for a reason, and we're going to go with what you think is right. This is my opinion, so take it for what it is. I think there's a shelf life to everything, right. And when it's done, you move on to the next thing. A lot of people have problems with that. Does it help to honor the past? [00:15:21] Speaker B: I think to celebrate it? I think not just to honor it, but to celebrate it and to talk about the gift that it has been. But too often we've let the thing become the thing as opposed to how it fosters the mission. [00:15:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:37] Speaker D: Well, in your career specifically, one of the questions I wanted to ask was that, you know, there's comfort in religion and routine, you know, so do you think that should change? [00:15:48] Speaker B: No. I think that for people who live chaotic lives, like most of us do, we want to be able to come and come to a worship service that we can count on. So, for me, that sense of tradition, they say that tradition is the living faith of dead people and that traditionalism is the dead faith of living people. And so traditionalism is holding on to that component without fostering the mission. But tradition is about holding onto the mission. And so the good news doesn't change, but how you communicate that has to change. [00:16:32] Speaker C: The good news is that you came to be a guest on the worst advice I ever got, because I think this episode has been great. I think everybody deals with this issue of how to make change, when to make change, what to do. And, Phil, I think you've been terrific today. I can't thank you enough for joining us. [00:16:50] Speaker B: Well, thank you. And if you do mess up, be willing to apologize. [00:16:55] Speaker C: Oh, a little extra there at the end. I'm apologizing a lot because I'm messing up a lot, Phil. [00:17:02] Speaker B: We all need to do that. And it takes a big man, a big person, to be willing and able to apologize even in the smallest of circumstances. That's some good advice to take with us. [00:17:17] Speaker C: Well, thanks for that. Good advice at the end, after the worst advice you had ever got. Almost messed up on the name of the podcast there. Yeah. But thanks again, Phil. Really appreciate it. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Thanks for listening. [00:17:30] Speaker A: Well, JB, it's interesting. Phil got this advice when he was just beginning in his career from people who were very far along in their career. And I think many times when we seek advice, we believe there's great wisdom from people who have done things for 30, 40 years. But in some instances like this, it can be dated or no longer applicable. And that's something our listeners need to think about. Context and life cycles, definitely. [00:17:59] Speaker E: Especially when you think about his background in the church and religion. We brought it up a little bit about how there's comfort in the routine and don't. Don't change anything. Make sure we're a constant for these people. And he's not saying change that. He's not saying, change who you are or go in there and change something just to change it. He's saying, you have to look at context. You got to be like, okay, well, what here couldn't be better? [00:18:20] Speaker A: Many times I'm guilty of this, and I'm sure many of our listeners are. They hear the word change and they think of it in the most extreme nature. But not all change is extreme. Sometimes it's just other basic or fundamental changes which we really shouldn't have to wait a long time to address. [00:18:37] Speaker E: Well, change is loss. I think that's his most profound statement that stayed with me for sure, is that any amount of change is the loss of something, you know, time or freedom or whatever. And people don't fear that change. They fear that loss. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah, they res, they resist loss. And the fear they have about change is that loss. Interesting, though. His other point that I took away was when you first start something new or you're meeting new people, study, listen, and gather information, then you'll be able to really address decisions on change, whether you're wired for change or not wired for change. If you really take time to listen and study and gather information, you'll be able to make good decisions that include status quo or making change. [00:19:27] Speaker E: Absolutely. Definitely. Like all of the guests that we have on the podcast, he always ends up, we end up getting some, some gems of good advice and the worst advice that they ever got. [00:19:37] Speaker A: If you're enjoying hearing about the worst advice our guests ever got, take time to give us that five star rating. And thanks for joining us today. We look forward to having you back. Next time on the worst advice I ever got.