Don't Wear Pink To An Interview - Jess Kirkman

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the worst advice I ever got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer JB. And today our guest is senior director of global brand for Mattel, Jess Kirkman. Before joining the wonderful world of Mattel, Jess helped launch Yum's first in house agency, Taco Bell creative, and is an award winning designer, inspiring people to be their authentic selves, creating feel good art featured on her Instagram channel at Manifest. Jess. Her advice is sure to pique your curiosity, and we're so glad she's joining us all the way from California this morning. Jess, thanks for being here. [00:00:45] Speaker B: Thanks for having me here. I'm excited. [00:00:48] Speaker C: Well, I'm excited to hear. What was the worst advice you ever got? [00:00:52] Speaker B: Well, the worst advice I ever got was to never wear pink to an interview. [00:00:57] Speaker C: Oh, wow. That is very specific. I'm excited to dig here. Tell me a little bit about where you were kind of in your life when this came up. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So it actually goes back a long time. Now it feels like a long time. Over 20 something years. I was a senior at Syracuse University. I was studying communication design, which is graphic design meets advertising and marketing. It was a great program there. And I had one female professor out of five. She had worked in beauty and fashion agency New York life, and she gave me this piece of advice in my final portfolio review with her. I was all excited about my future, the possibilities. I have my whole life ahead of me, and I sit in front of her and she said, pink is not professional. I would never wear pink to an interview. And I was wearing pink at the time, so I was kind of totally taken back. And back then, you couldn't just go on social media or on TikTok and get advice for what to do. So you're kind of taking these words of your professor to heart. So it really stuck with me, and I have never forgotten that since. [00:02:13] Speaker C: You know, we always think back to those things that people told us when we were still evolving into our professional selves. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And especially hearing from the only other female and feeling like I was showing some personality and I'm creative. So, of course, at that time, you want to be rebellious, you want to stand out. And she had actually said something to me like, pink is for sorority girls. It's not for professional women. And I was never in a sorority. And nothing against sororities, but even the fact that she insinuated that I was in one, and it just made me realize really early on that you get judged really quickly for how you look, good or bad. And it started kind of a long path of really being considerate of who I am in my professional world. And can I ever kind of combine those two worlds? [00:03:04] Speaker D: So she gave you that directly to you? [00:03:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:07] Speaker B: This is not a one on one. Yeah, this was a one on one conversation. I was wearing a pink sweater at the time, and she looked straight at me and said, don't. Don't wear that to me. [00:03:17] Speaker C: It's almost like she had to maybe give you something that was negative for you to walk away from. I don't know, but it sounds very trite. [00:03:24] Speaker B: I think so. And it was also very old school at the time. And I do think, you know, not every woman wants to help another woman. And I. I don't know what the intent was. Maybe it was helpful for that time in the early two thousands. I don't know. But when I heard the name of this podcast, it felt like this came right to mind. [00:03:48] Speaker C: PTSD. Did you have a connection to her before this, where she had sort of generated a like for you and she felt comfortable being that specific? [00:03:57] Speaker B: I actually think she gave me that advice for the opposite reason. She was an older woman. This was her retiring year. Maybe she was going out with a bang, and I think maybe she was projecting somewhat and that. I think she was trying. That maybe she saw something in me and really hoped for the best and was being parental and that was the comfort level, or she was. She was a harsh critic to begin with, and everyone was scared of her. So it wasn't surprising that this came like this, but it definitely hit. Hit me. [00:04:27] Speaker D: Did you listen to it? [00:04:29] Speaker B: I did listen to it, actually. I think it did shake my confidence, realizing that your work doesn't always stand out enough by itself, that you do have to realize that you are a brand, and that is what they taught us. I went to school for branding and communication design, and part of that was, how do we brand ourselves and how do we show up not only looking for jobs, but once we're in the workplace? It shook me a little. It rattled me a little because I was in that rebellious age where all I wanted to do was stand out as much as I can and be different. And I still think that's a great way to go, but at the time, it made me question some of my career aspirations and can women lead and still be themselves? It was a little bit of a tough pill to swallow, and I definitely followed it for. For a few years. [00:05:24] Speaker C: It's. It's interesting because you just described the type of person you are, which I think is very important when you listen to this advice, because it was almost like you were given a piece of advice that really set you back a little bit. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Felt like it definitely did. I would say it set me back, but it also made me consider things I wasn't thinking about. And especially going into the workforce for the first time, I mean, reality is a tough pill to swallow, and it made me realize just about inherent biases that exist. And, you know, as the years went on, you realize that more and more of those exist, and they're silent a lot of the time. So she was maybe just saying out loud what a lot of people keep in, in their heads. But it did. It did make me think a lot more about how I approached interviews, how I myself. [00:06:17] Speaker C: You mentioned about the difficulty in leading if you can't be your authentic self. Tell me more about why you think that. [00:06:26] Speaker B: So I'm single. I don't have kids. I'm a little bit older. I don't fit into this mold. So there's been a lot of navigating of how that story shows up in the workplace, and if it even should show up in the workplace, how much should we need to know about someone personally in order to judge them professionally? And so that's a constant thing I'm thinking about, which maybe this piece of advice, like, rooted deep in me a long time ago, but I think it's something we all need to think about. And women especially, are judged a little bit differently and harshly, even before they open their mouth. You can show up in a room wearing pink, you don't have to say a single thing, and people will have a story about you already. [00:07:06] Speaker D: What do you think you mean by the word authentic? [00:07:09] Speaker B: I think feeling like you aren't putting on a front in front of anyone else, saying things you wouldn't normally say, hiding parts about yourself that feel true to what you're experiencing. And as a creative, if you can't be authentic, you're a machine. You might as well be AI. And so I think there's a lot of vulnerability in being a creative. You're putting your soul and your spirit out there, and you're asking the world to judge it. So before things even see the marketplace, there's a whole process of people judging and directing and editing you. And so you're just in this constant place of being really cognizant of the words you say and the things you put out there. And so it makes you question whether you're being authentic in everything you do. [00:07:58] Speaker C: I think trying to be something you're not is a horrible way to live. And that's kind of what that's. [00:08:02] Speaker D: Sean, have you ever, has anybody ever given you the advice, fake it till you make it? [00:08:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what I, what I hear Jess talking about is, you know, pretend to be something you're not. And I just. I don't know how people live that way. [00:08:14] Speaker B: That's exactly it. I honestly, there's so much power in being authentic. And if people are uncomfortable by it, I think it's because it's instilling the question in them, are they showing up authentically? And I've just started caring less and less about what people think. And I don't say that to be overly curt or rude. It's more, you have to show up authentically in order to produce good work, to be a good leader, to be a good partner. So I think it's just exhausting to try to be someone you're not. And the fake it till you make it. I actually, I love. Hate that expression. I love it because we all experience imposter syndrome. Like, I don't know, I'm still a twelve year old girl in a 40 year old body. I don't know. None of us know what we're doing, right? But at the same time, the fake it part, I think people can take that too far where that you're playing a Persona. And I have really tried over the last ten years specifically to show up the same way I do at work as I do at home. And people that work with me, for me, under me, over me, whatever, are working with me. They're not working with work, just or home. [00:09:26] Speaker C: Jess, when we kicked this podcast off, JB interviewed me and it was really about the importance of making a good first impression. And I was so worried about it, Jess, that I would fake it. Like I would try to be something that I thought the other person wanted to be instead of being my authentic self. And it led me to just. I was doing terribly. So this really speaks to me on that front because it's very similar. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. I mean, look, it's a. Authenticity is an inherent human condition, right? And we're all trying to figure it out as we go. And we're also always wanting to put our best selves forward, but we're doing it sometimes through the eyes of someone else. What do they think is the best foot forward? Not what do I think is my best foot forward and just learning how to recognize that. And again, it's like that not care switch which sounds harsh, but it's the no, I have to do this for me first and everyone else. It will be more authentic to them if I do that. [00:10:29] Speaker C: Not to give advice all of a sudden, but the sooner young people can get to the point that they're okay if people don't like them or agree with them and move on and truly move on without holding anything back, the better off they can be and the more successful they'll be quicker. [00:10:45] Speaker B: That's a hard one to do, though, you know, and, um, I think it's easy. Nowadays, everyone has an opinion about everything, especially with social media. There are trolls. There are people that are going to comment on not just how you look, but what you say. I've been told I have a valley girl accent. I've only lived in California seven years. But you have to just roll with the punches. Like you said, water off a duck's back. I love that expression. You have to laugh at it a little bit. [00:11:14] Speaker C: My daughter is 21 years old, and she is beginning to interview and think about what's next for her. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:22] Speaker C: And I think this is exactly the same for her today as it was two decades ago. [00:11:28] Speaker B: For you, there's so much more interest in who people are now than there used to be when interviewing. And at least for me, I go through all my interview questions of, about competency and the job and personality, and then I always ask, what do you do outside of work? What are your passions? What do you like? And that's where you get the really, really interesting stuff. I was interviewing someone recently, and I swear this was my first experience with this. I think they were answering with AI answers. And technology is all new and different. They were giving me these super canned responses and maybe they practiced, but it felt odd to. And finally we got through all those questions, and I was, it was just a gut feeling. And then I asked, what do you like outside of work? His tone changed, his voice changed. He's like, I go to comedy clubs. I love improv. I totally changed. And even just that enough was personality again. Now we need to distinguish between who's real and who's not. That's the stuff I hire upon. Like, who are you and what do you bring to the table? That's different. I don't need cookie cutter people on my team. I want someone who's going to add something individualistic and unique. And that's also the advice that I give to people, which is almost the opposite of what I got, which is like, show up as yourself because that's the person they're going to want to hire. [00:12:54] Speaker D: Well, it's, that's what you're getting to with this advice that don't wear a pancake, don't be yourself. You know, don't be the person that they want you to be. Do this. Don't be yourself. Don't let, don't show yourself. That's just not real. [00:13:04] Speaker B: No, it's not real. And that's not, once you're, once you get a job, that's not how you're going to show up. I think we all want to work with people we like, not just people that can get a job done. It also needs to be a fun and smooth experience. So that personality really adds an extra little special touch. [00:13:22] Speaker C: Talk about this, how that all came full circle. [00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I was working on agency side in New York, so I was in New York for twelve years working at a bunch of different agencies, publicists, some big ones, some small ones. And that is where I was kind of experimenting with like who I am and how I show up. And then I got a job offer at Taco Bell headquarters based out of Orange county in California. I was asked to grow their in house creative team there. Taco Bell. One of their brand attributes was being rebellious. And I was really able to unlock myself at Taco Bell because it was fun. We called ourselves artists, weirdos and rebels. And what kind of better way to really show up authentically than to really lean into that? So that's what brought me out to California. And then I ended up getting a job at Mattel. And my first day at Mattel was the Monday of the Barbie movie premiere. Oh, July 17, last year. And my first day. Not only did they take us, the entire organization, to the movies and we got to watch the movie. Like, this was literally my first day, but they gave us all pink Barbie movie t shirts. We're all, everyone's rocking pink. And that was my post on social media. Me in the Barbie box wearing my pink shirt and having the best first day of a job ever. And it really, that line of never wear pink, 100%. This, this was the shirt I wore in before I changed into my Barbie shirt. But I bought all this pink for the job and I was so excited and Barbie was having a moment and it kind of rolled into the whole rest of the year and it just came full circle. And there has nothing been so kind of sweet, so satisfying, satisfying to know that I've kind of come full circle on this journey. I'm showing up authentically and now I'm being supported and encouraged to not only be myself, but wear pink and do whatever I want that will allow me to be me. And it's just a great little story there. [00:15:40] Speaker D: Imagine if you didn't wear pink. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Oh, I know. I wore all black. It's funny because people that wear, like, the New York uniform of all black, which is what my closet used to be, kind of get teased even for that. They're like, we work in toys. It immediately allowed everyone to get to see me outside of work and see that it's the same person, because, like, you're kicking off with the personal side, and when you leave those walls, sometimes it makes it easier to do that. And so I actually. I love first day onboarding, being, like, less about work and more. More about the people. [00:16:15] Speaker C: You know, a lot of people don't get the closure on the bad advice that it feels like you got with that. [00:16:20] Speaker B: It's true. I didn't even think I would get the closure. And it was honestly just one of those moments. It wasn't just, oh, you're working at Mattel or you're working for Barbie. It was, we are all wearing pink on your first day as a career move celebrating women in leadership and, you know, the whole Barbie movie, uh, plot. But it really hit it home more than anything I've experienced. So that's why when I heard the topic of this podcast, I immediately was like, well, I have something fun for that one. [00:16:54] Speaker C: Do your team members that work? How big is your team? [00:16:57] Speaker B: Uh, I would say about 20 something people. [00:16:59] Speaker C: Now, do they know this story? [00:17:01] Speaker B: No, they don't know this story, actually, which I'm. I think this is. I'm excited to share this interview and this content. The more and more I was thinking about it since we've even started chatting, I really feel like the lesson came so far around that it's something I feel proud to share. So I do appreciate the platform to be able to tell the story, and I will be sharing it with them. [00:17:28] Speaker C: It's such a telling story because it was impactful, it was painful, but it all circles back to something really great and such a great thing to just box up and share and in a podcast episode or in a conversation over lunch with somebody who just started out. And, you know, I can see it, Jess, when people start working here, that they try. They're trying to be something because it's me or because it's you, their boss. Right. And I think it's our job as leaders to identify that and to, like, squelch it immediately, just be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Be transparent. Be who you are. Because if you're trying to be something you think I want you to be, we're on the wrong path. Right? [00:18:08] Speaker B: That's exactly it. It really is. Again, it comes back down to authenticity, encouraging authenticity, encouraging people to be able to express that as well. And not trying to be someone that you're not, that's a recipe for disaster. And your unique qualities are what make you stand out. And, you know, as for pink, maybe that's just now a power move. I've turned it around and it's going to be a new power move here. [00:18:35] Speaker C: I need to go buy some more pink, it sounds like. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Look, I keep saying I'm a creative because it gives me an excuse to be outside that corporate box. Not everyone can do this. That's the reality, is not everyone can show up in pink to their job and be taken seriously. How about that? But I think whether it's about the physical appearance or nothing, you could be an attorney and show up in court and still feel like you're giving your full self. I think it's really more about what makes you you. And those are the things you can't deny. So I think it's more just about making sure that as leaders, like you said, we're encouraging people to not hide because it's a comfort factor, too. Not everyone can fake it. And I think then you start to get resentful at work. You start showing up differently, and eventually that other person is someone you don't want to associate with. So whether you end up leaving a job or waiting to get fired because you're just, like, so miserable in this character, it's just not a sustainable, healthy thing, especially in the workforce. [00:19:40] Speaker D: Be careful who you pretend to be, because you are who you pretend to be, right? [00:19:43] Speaker B: 100%. [00:19:45] Speaker C: Sounds to me a lot like you had to live so separately, but now you can really combine business and pleasure, right? But we call it work life integration. And one component of it is being your authentic self. To get back to that, right, the integration is important for you, is it not, Jess? [00:20:04] Speaker B: It's everything. And, you know, I actually use that as a strength at work. So I'm an artist on the side. I have. When Instagram was blowing up, I ended up getting a bunch of followers there specifically for my art. That was what I used beyond my portfolio to get my job with two jobs ago because it showed a little bit of personality and it showed what I do. And when I interviewed for Mattel, I proclaim that I do all these other things and who I am individually, I don't see that as a threat. If ever a company says, oh no, she does that on the side, she won't be able to focus when she gets into work. Encourage. I do a session with my team called share some shit. And basically it's where we weekly share inspiration, passion projects. That's their time. If you're working on something fun outside of work, share it, show it. And there used to be the stigma, specifically in New York advertising world, that you had to pretend your job was everything. And now I've really tried to break the mold now that I am in control of the team and can run it how I want. But I want to know what people are doing outside of work. I want to know what brings you joy so that then you can bring that enthusiasm into your actual job. Because maybe what you're doing at work is not the most exciting thing, but if you're feeling fulfilled in other ways, you're going to bring that passion into the job and you're not going to be so downtrodden with, this is my life and I have to do an email design today. There's times where we have to do PowerPoints that I'm doing them still. It's just, it makes everything easier when you feel like you have other outlets outside of work. So I made sure to emphasize that when I was interviewing with Mattel that I have a whole other side to me that is passionate about art, design, culture, music, and that it is not threatening to me as a leader. It actually helps build a stronger version of me and for my team. [00:22:08] Speaker C: Well, the strongest version of you showed up to this podcast because this has been incredible, Jess. And I think our listeners are really, really going to appreciate your story. They're going to love how it came full circle. And I'm just so excited that you came to be a part of our show today. So thank you, Jess, for being here. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. This is super fun. And you're right. I'm going to use this as a catalyst to share the story and just express that everyone can be a little more authentic. So I appreciate kicking off my day this way. Thank you. [00:22:44] Speaker C: Thank you, Jess. [00:22:45] Speaker A: What a cool, cool story on how that came full circle. [00:22:49] Speaker D: JB, I love when that happens. It's, it's, it's rare that, you know, you really have a full, full circle of, of advice that goes from there. Just a clean, clear, here's what happens. And see, I knew I shouldn't have listened to that advice and that was just awesome. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Made me wonder if we judge people unintentionally or maybe sometimes intentionally when we're quote unquote, giving advice. [00:23:10] Speaker D: I think that's what she was saying, was that she was definitely feeling like you made an assumption about me based on what I'm wearing. And that's something that probably happens to this day. No matter what you're doing, you're wearing a suit, you're wearing a thing, no matter what your kind of vibe is, people are going to make an assumption about you. So she wasn't necessarily saying to think about that. She's more thinking about it from the other perspective. If you are somebody who's doing that, maybe you should back off a little bit. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And this thing about authenticity being an inherent human condition, man, I loved it when she said that. [00:23:44] Speaker C: Yep. [00:23:44] Speaker D: Very difficult. I'd say that's one of the easier said than done things, especially in the age of social media and comments and trolls and all those things. But, you know, absolutely. If you can really just not think about what other people are going to think or say or do and just be yourself, it's going to be better. And she says that works for her business. Like, if you can come into work as your authentic self, you're gonna be happier, your work's gonna be better, and everybody around you is gonna enjoy being with you. And at the end of the day, isn't that what you want in your life? [00:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it is. And back to your point about this is easier said than done. Well, we can make the environment easier for people to feel comfortable to do that if we as leaders, encourage people not to hide, hide behind, you know, some inauthentic self because there's a shelf life for how long you can be something other than yourself. [00:24:36] Speaker D: Absolutely. [00:24:38] Speaker A: Well, I'm so glad that Jess came to our podcast today and was her true self, her authentic self. What a great story. Jess was terrific today, and I know people are taking a lot away from this episode. And if you like what you heard from this episode, tune in next week when we drop another episode of the worst advice I ever got.