You Can't Give Up On People - Kat McDavitt

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the worst advice I ever got. I'm your host, Sean Taylor, along with my producer, JB. And today our guest is Kat McDavitt. Kat is the founder and president of Encyna, a nationwide health technology consultancy. She's the host of the health tech talk show and is also the founder and CEO of Zoria Foundation, a 501 c three public charity that provides cash childcare grants for women working in healthcare roles. Hey, Kat, thanks for joining us. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [00:00:38] Speaker A: So, tell me about the worst advice you ever got. [00:00:41] Speaker B: The worst advice I ever got is to not give up on people. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Okay, well, that sounds actually noble. [00:00:48] Speaker B: It's a little douchey if you think I like it. Out of it, I look a little bit. It makes me sound like a little bit of an asshole, but it is definitely, in the professional world, the worst advice I have ever gotten. [00:00:59] Speaker A: So to not give up on people now, you know, when I hear that, I think, wow, I wouldn't want somebody giving up on me. Like, tell me. Give me some more context. Unwrap this a little bit. [00:01:10] Speaker B: All right, all right, all right. And I will also just add in here, I run a for profit consultancy. I also run a nonprofit, y'all. So I am not a terrible person. I run a charity. A for profit consultancy is not a charity. Right? So in the context of the business world, and I run a people business. Right. People are my product. I have to have the best people, and there's real risk if I have individuals on my team who can't make the cut or are doing the wrong thing or don't take feedback. And so when I got this advice, I was a little bit of a cub. I was a rising star at a consultancy that was acquired, since it was actually a wonderful place. Despite the worst advice, Dodge Communications. It was acquired a long time ago. God bless our founder. He is living on the cape. But I was building a team. I was learning how to lead. I think I had a team of about 14 people, and I had inherited several people who just, you know, people just kind of passed around, right? And I went to our head of accounts at the time, and I was like, you know, these guys just aren't working. Like, what do we do? We put them on performance plans. You know, we did all this stuff. They just keep going on new performance plans. And he said, we just can't give up on people, Kat. We can't give up on people. And I think that was probably something from his past that he was carrying forward. Right? That, like, maybe he felt like someone gave up on him. But what that doesn't appeal business is it strains the high performers. Especially because, you know, if you can never scale appropriately, if you're not building on people who are good, you know, you're building a house on faulty foundation. If you're not really addressing the people problem within a people business. Right. And consultancies are usually places where you have to be a critical thinker. You can't just run a checklist and say, this is how you assemble the car. Right? I. Using your brain, building on existing things, innovating as a human and, man, if you're keeping people who can't perform, you are just putting your entire business at risk. And your high performers typically leave. [00:03:15] Speaker A: So, Kat, you were alluding to when you got this advice, described yourself as a young cub. You had a team that was reporting to you. Let's go back to that moment. Did you take that advice for a little while and just keep banging your head against the wall? Tell me a little bit about what, chronologically, what happened after you got there. [00:03:31] Speaker B: I did. You know, I took that advice for probably a year. Very unfortunate. Right. And this was a period of high growth for me and the business. And, you know, it was a lot of time. It was a lot of my personal time. I was also a young mother, two little kids. Right. I'm already not sleeping. And a lot of my people were in a similar position. So what that ends up doing is you end up hauling the weight of others. And we had a point where I. I was exhausted. One of our very high performers had put in their notice as a result of us not taking care of some of these lower performers. And it kind of all came to a head. And we were able finally, because we did have one year of documentation that this wasn't working. And we had tried our very best and did let those individuals go, really, I believe it was in the same week. And it's unfortunate that it got to the point where I, you know, it was. We took care of it when it became a big problem. Right. And that's unfortunate. And that happens in a lot of business and a lot of different scenarios, but when you let someone go and you know that they are not the right fit for your business, you'll hear a lot of leaders say, oh, it was best for everyone. Right. Like, they need to find a place where they can really thrive. Honestly, like, it sucked. And I know that it sucked for me. I know it really sucked for those people to be let go, and they were scared. So, yeah, we were both. We were all miserable. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Yeah, well, misery loves company, I guess. [00:05:00] Speaker C: Sure. [00:05:01] Speaker B: It was the worst. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Kat, let me ask a challenging question here. How do I draw the line between spending the time investing in a person versus saying, I need to give up on you? I'm not going to invest any more time in you. [00:05:14] Speaker B: There's a big difference there. You've already determined one person has potential, right? One person is at least meeting the core requirements of the job they currently have. So you, especially in a people business, you really do have to invest in people. I mean, that's core to any consulting business, I would say. I'm sure it's core to yours. It is, right. Because people are our product. And in a consulting business, you better damn well believe you are throwing a lot of money to those people. And a lot of your time is in that, because that's what you do. And back to your original question. How do you determine if you're giving up on someone or investing? I think the difference is making sure that communication is the key here, right. Being very clear about expectations, what the job is, what you should be doing. You're gonna see someone above the line. You're gonna see someone below the line. And I think there is a case where someone is right below the line where it's worth investing to see if they maybe don't understand they came from a very different industry. There's a learning curve. And sometimes, honestly, in this world, especially, my world's very small. Right. I always joke I'm really important to 200 people. It's a little bigger than that, but, like, not much. There are cases where people make big mistakes, and you might even lose a client over it, but they're still worth it. And you can tell that that was a mistake that's easy to repair or you're easy to turn around, or they truly didn't know it was a huge mistake. Those people are worth investing in. So I think it's more like, is this just a complete failure to deliver and that they don't even enjoy the job? Or is this a case where someone made a mistake? [00:06:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:46] Speaker C: How do people get through the interview process with, shouldn't you know right away? Like, I've interviewed you, you're not good at this. So how did you hire them in the first place? [00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think, at least in my business, it's pretty niche. And so a lot of times we're hiring known entities. Right. And so, like, that's a little bit easier. Right. And you can do a ton of back channel references. I know, some people disagree with that approach. I do not. I think you should backchannel the shit out of people. But I think that in the interview process, especially when we're hiring new, this very much applies to newer hires who are more junior, where you don't quite know you're kind of hiring for, what do they say? Hire for attitude or whatever. Hire for work ethic. We'll figure out the content later. It is very unlikely that I'm going to find someone who's an expert in data use agreements for health data exchange. That's not a lot of people out there want to do that or know how to do it. I think that's when it's riskier in the interview process. And there's a fine line, I think, between a candidate and recruiting experience and making them, like, doing a four month interview process where I'm really testing them out and wasting their time. Right. So I think sometimes we make the wrong decision, we maybe hire too fast. And there's a lot of merit to the phrase hire slow fire fast. Right. So I think for the more senior ones, if there's an issue with a more senior hire, the interview process is different, of course, but I think we're really seeing that in truly high pressure situations that we just couldn't interact. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Can we go back to the employee who maybe you alluded to it, maybe they made a mistake, or maybe they're just below the level where they need to be at. And you also alluded to a pip earlier. For those who don't understand what that is, performance improvement plan, do you think pips work? [00:08:37] Speaker B: No. [00:08:38] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. I wondered because you said, never give up on people. A pip is kind of designed to not give up on somebody. Maybe give them time, elaborate a little bit on your feelings. [00:08:50] Speaker B: I unfortunately have never seen one work. I do think they're valuable because back to my point about communication, you need to make sure that you're also say so. Some of my leaders working under me and at other companies as well, I need to know that they have clearly communicated to that employee that there's a problem. Many times an employee will see that and they use as an opportunity to say, oh, this is not gonna work. I better go. This is my time to actually, I better go. Right. This is one of the things that I see most often is kind of the inconsistency. So they'll all of a sudden perform really well for like a month. You say, oh, my gosh, you've really been performing. You've been crushing it. You've been staying up and doing all this stuff that you never did before, and then you kind of lessen the pressure, you lessen the oversight, and it dips again. And so that's really, really time intensive and labor intensive and energy consuming for a senior leader. Right. [00:09:48] Speaker C: So you don't like pips at all. So when would you fire this person? [00:09:52] Speaker B: So I will go through the process. I mean, I have terminated people for, like, there is cause for immediate termination. Absolutely. You just. You get it done, man. I sound like a total freaking asshole. [00:10:02] Speaker C: No, it's fine. [00:10:06] Speaker A: It cuts both ways, too, Kat. I mean, let's be honest. It's not just you as an employer. I mean, we hired a. I can remember early in my career, we hired a manager from a big four firm. Third day she was there, she went to lunch, and she never came back. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:20] Speaker A: She was like, you know what? I'm firing you. [00:10:22] Speaker C: I fire the boss. [00:10:23] Speaker B: What's the difference? That's the thing. People leave all the time. Right? They can tell it's not a fit. [00:10:27] Speaker C: Hey, you have to think of everybody else, too. You said you're responsible for 200 people if there's one person dragging the clients down and dragging them out. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Well, I was going to ask you about that. Cause you alluded to that earlier when you first got this advice that it was hurting the high performers and you had one actually leave. [00:10:42] Speaker B: That's exactly right. And that's happened to me in our current business now. Right. But I'll say that, like, the other side of this, and this is, I think any high performer that listens to this podcast is gonna feel this. Is that. How much does it suck when you're working with someone who is not hauling their weight, who's screwing things up, who is just. Even if they're a nice person, you know, not delivering, and you're delivering, and how frustrating is it for your boss to see that and you see no action being taken? You can say, oh, like, you're gonna give up on people? Like, yeah, I'm gonna give up on people. And then I'm gonna invest all of that energy that I have in people who can really perform and do amazing things. Right? By that, I mean, at least at my company, we have a program where you have to spend 10% of your time on an issue that matters within that category. Right. My personal passion project is opioid use disorder. I do a ton of work with the community in West Virginia that really supports innovative ways to treat mothers and their babies who are being treated. Right. So I can't do that if I am wasting resources on people who aren't gonna perform. Right, and because we're really selective and because we do take quick action, I have enough money that I can let those people spend 10% of their billable hours. I mean that, like, you run a services business. You understand that's a lot. So there's a lot of things that you can't do for your good people if you're holding on to those who aren't performing or aren't right for your business. [00:12:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:09] Speaker C: I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the other person, because everything that you're saying makes so much sense. It's almost like, on paper, of course. [00:12:16] Speaker B: This is the way. [00:12:18] Speaker C: Do you think he thought it was? Not the way. [00:12:21] Speaker B: You know, I think about that sometimes. Cause I think about this all the time. Right. Like, we're on a podcast talking about this. I think about it all the time. You know, like, this is the first thing. I didn't even really think about the topic when I heard about you. I was like, oh, yeah, it's definitely it. My guess is that someone gave up on him. He didn't have, you know, kind of the communication required to make it something that they understood, and he's carried that forward. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Unfortunately, in his mind, he wasn't thinking, this is a great time to advise young cat on the way the world works. Right. But you took it as advice. [00:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think. I mean, it was a decision point. Right? At this point, I was like, I have to do something. He's like, we can't give up on people. It was less advice and more. He was making that decision for me at that time. And definitely I took it as, like, this is the way. Right. This is what you do. But I think the interesting thing about some of this, too, is, like, how do you handle someone's exit? I. In a way that's, like, respectful, because more often than not, it's a good person who's not in the right place. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Or somebody that buys into the culture but just doesn't deliver on the requirements. [00:13:26] Speaker B: That's very common. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Very hard. Very hard. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I always call this the. It's the guy that brings the brownies or the girl that brings the brownies to the break room. Right. Everybody loves this person. And often those people are socially very competent, and you know about their kids, you know about their situation, and it's like. And you're always like, oh, but they just bought a house or something like that. Right. But there's a way to handle this that's really respectful and honors them as people. And again, that's clear communication. I mean, there's all kinds of ways you can make that easier on them. Right. You can offer to connect them with other people. You can provide severance, like, meaningful severance. Right. So they have time to look for a job. There's even been cases where, like, someone's a good person and is providing some value, just not enough. And you say, hey, like, you have 30 days and, you know, all kinds of different things you can do. [00:14:13] Speaker A: You can work while you look for your job. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And, like, I highly advise having good legal counsel, blah, blah, blah. I'm not a lawyer. I pay a lawyer. So, you know, all that stuff. But, like, there's lots of ways you can do this and, like, you know, come out. Everybody comes out better. [00:14:26] Speaker A: We typically give people a weekend to figure out an attitude problem, but maybe a little bit longer to figure out a technical problem, so long as the attitude is correct. Right. How does this translate outside the business world? [00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I also think this is, like, real life stuff for friends, family, even. You have a favorite restaurant, but they turn to total shit. This is all back to when to quit. Have you heard of Angela Duckworth? And she has a book called Grit. No, she's awesome. She's my hero. I've never met her, but I really wish I would. But this. This book is awesome. It talks about the importance of people say, oh, I just need to stick with things. And there's a lot of evidence that that's true. Right. Like, practice and all that. But there's also a point where, like, at what point do you need to give up? Because you are actually putting in, you're investing in too much, and it's actually damaging. I think it's true. Kind of across the board. [00:15:21] Speaker A: I think what I'm hearing is that whether it's in the business world or in your personal life, almost becomes incumbent upon you to say something. If you don't say something, why should you even expect change? [00:15:33] Speaker B: Well, right, yeah. You know, we're dealing with humans here. Humans are super messy. But back to communication. You can only tell someone what your expectations are if you know what your expectations are. Right? And I think that's true in your personal lives, too. Right? Like, what are my boundaries? What am I looking for here? What kind of friends do I want around me? And, yeah, I think that if you allow underperformance, like you're saying, if, like, you haven't clearly defined what performance is, then, yeah, you set up a culture where it's okay, you know, it's normalized to, you know, mess things up or whatever it might be. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Sounds. [00:16:07] Speaker C: You're describing a limit. Like, there's a limit to every interaction, career, family, things, but you need to know where your limit is. And then when you get hit, that time to go. [00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, not to get, like, too woo woo or anything, but, like, there is a. There is, like, a lot of value to sit, like, have some quiet time, especially as a leader, and say, like, okay, like, what do I really want this to be? Like, what do I want this company to be? And who do I want around me? Like, what do I want those people to be? [00:16:33] Speaker A: Like, I think no one bats a thousand. And I think when you have a record of trying really hard for someone, you get some. Some room to fail. Right? I mean, I assume that's the case with your highest performers. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. We fail all the time. Right. Like, people mess up. Right. And I think it's like, just like, you know, having. Having the. Having the record that gives you some grace to mess those things up. This is not like a, you know, one strike in your out situation. It's less scary than it sounds. I think it's more just, you know, making sure that when you do see something that's not gonna work, that you deal with it. [00:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I can totally see someone taking advantage of someone they know. Never gives up on anybody. I can just keep moving the line and moving the line and moving the line. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Giving up on people in our corporate values means we have set high expectations. If we see someone who isn't performing, we are gonna act swiftly and with kindness. So, yeah, the other thing that I wanna say about some of this man, like, some people who don't take action on poor performers, I actually think a lot of it is, like, it comes from a place of, like, great love, right? Like, they. They care about that person. It comes from a place of kindness, but also a place where they haven't been trained to be effective managers and think about the big picture and what that does to everyone around them. [00:17:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Well, I think it's hard not to give up on people. Just generally. I don't think we're wired necessarily to do that. But I do think sometimes it's a favor to someone to say, look, I'm cutting the cord here. I'm giving up on you. So I think this has been very helpful for our listening audience, that maybe they'll examine somebody in their business or somebody on their team or someone in their life that maybe is just far enough below the line that they need to cut the cord a little bit. So, Kat, thank you for coming in and sharing your worst advice for the benefit of our listening audience. I really appreciate it. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me, JB. [00:18:30] Speaker A: The thing that I walk away from after talking to Kat is this harsh reality that we all have to address, that I think people are genuinely good and when they buy into the culture but can't deliver on the technical or job requirements, it's. It's just bad. It's just a terrible scenario for everybody. [00:18:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean, just personally, whenever I hear someone say, like, we're a family, we're a thing, like, it almost ends up being a red flag for me because you're not. It's a business. You can definitely treat someone with respect and like them and want to do other things, but I don't know if you need to necessarily think about it as a family. It's more. It's a business, it's a job, it's a thing. So that when you're on either side of that role and you've got to move on and do something different or you got to let somebody go, even somebody you genuinely like, that you know, it's not personal, it's not an attack on you. It's just. It's business. It's not show friends, it's show business. [00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think not giving up on others is another way of people just avoiding a conversation they don't want to have or a conflict they don't want to get into. [00:19:32] Speaker C: Yeah, conflict avoidance is definitely what she's saying. Look, you want to be a leader. You want your team to be most efficient. If you want to make sure that you're not losing high performers to who have to pick up the slack. For somebody who's a low performer, this is just a reality that you're going to have to face, and you are going to have to give up. On some people. [00:19:49] Speaker A: When someone's not delivering, it means they're slack and someone has to pick that up. And it's typically people who don't have time to pick up the slack. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:57] Speaker C: She didn't even like the. The pips, you know, the performance improvement plans, because she's like, that's just another waste of time. And maybe someone will be good for a little bit and go back and, you know, like, it's just not real and it's like, just let them go. You know, sometimes they'll be. They could be better off. They might not be it's not about making yourself feel better. It's just, you know, sometimes it's just rip off the Band Aid. [00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I certainly don't think anybody's given up on our podcast yet, JB. And hopefully we're not under a pip as yet by any of our listeners. [00:20:28] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:20:29] Speaker A: If we're not and you're enjoying what you're hearing, be sure to tune in next Friday. We're going to drop another episode of the worst advice I ever got.