Lead From The Back - Manya Whitaker

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got, brought to you by Smith and Howard. I'm your host Sean Taylor, along with my producer, JB and today our guest is Dr. Manya Whitaker. Dr. Whitaker is the president of Colorado College. Now, before stepping into the presidency, Dr. Whitaker built an impressive academic and leadership career focused on education, equity, and student success. Her work explores how schools shape identity and opportunity for young people. And she's published widely on topics like educational access, racial identity development, and the experiences of students navigating complex social environments. Today, we're really excited to talk with someone who spends her days thinking about how people learn, grow, and lead. Dr. Whitaker, welcome to the Worst Advice I Ever Got. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Well, Manya, we jump right in and we just want to get to that worst advice. So tell us, what was the worst advice you ever got? [00:01:04] Speaker B: The worst advice I ever got was to lead from the back. [00:01:09] Speaker C: Lead from the back. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Lead from the back. Okay. Well, I have visions of dog sledding. Right. And the. The back dog. We'll get to that, I guess. But tell me, why was the advice so bad for you personally? [00:01:22] Speaker B: Because, you know, I'm a young black woman in a CEO position as a president of a college, and I need to be out in front so that the team has confidence in me not hiding in the background. [00:01:36] Speaker C: Right. Who'd you hear it from? [00:01:38] Speaker B: Oh, I've heard that from many people. Usually men who were in some type of C suite position. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Sure. Oh, Lord. Well, hopefully. Hopefully I've not done that to others. But. But when you. When you heard it for the first time, can you recall that? [00:01:59] Speaker B: I can recall it. It was my. My first kind of professional job, and I was working with somebody in my department, and he gave me that advice as we go in to teach this class together, you know, really try to lead from the fact. And I remember being like, what does that mean? [00:02:17] Speaker C: What did you take it to mean? [00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I took it to mean. Which ended up being the correct interpretation to allow the students to kind of guide the direction that the class was headed, to not be the first person to speak up and to give people space to kind of own the conversation. [00:02:36] Speaker C: So do you listen to it for a little while then? [00:02:39] Speaker B: I did. I tried. It didn't last that long. [00:02:43] Speaker A: So you go into this. This. This class, your co teaching is professorship, and you allow this to happen. Tell me a little bit about what transpired when you maybe led from the back in that environment. [00:02:59] Speaker B: You know, things just went awry. There was no real Direction. We weren't hitting the ideal kind of lesson plan goals. It was just a lot of talking in circles and the students looking around the room to see really, who was going to take charge. Right. It was just kind of like, what are we doing here? What's. What's your name? My name? And then we didn't know what the next step was. And so it really. Immediately I started to feel like maybe this was not the best advice, as [00:03:29] Speaker C: you were sort of moving through your career and you're still hearing. You said you've heard this from multiple people. Was it still something that you tried at different aspects? You're like, okay, well, maybe that's not right for teaching, but maybe this is right for something else. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. I don't know. Maybe six, seven years ago, I moved from the academic division into the student life division. And I heard it again, and I was like, all right, new job, new division, new people. I'm going to try this again. I'm going to leave from the back. And once again, probably not the best advice. [00:04:02] Speaker C: What happened? [00:04:04] Speaker B: The team really was paralyzed. They were every single day waiting for guidance from me to do the next step. Step. And I found myself feeling like I was micromanaging, whereas I wanted them to be empowered. And I think that was the ironic part, is that the advice is intended to empower people. And if that's not what was happening. [00:04:27] Speaker A: So, yeah, I'm trying to find the. When people give the worst advice that people ever got. Most people are not intentionally giving bad advice. [00:04:37] Speaker C: Almost never, right. [00:04:39] Speaker A: It's almost never, right. So clearly the first person that gave you this advice or others that gave you this advice, we're looking at it from the perspective of it would empower others or do something positive for others. And. And what comes to my mind, Manya, is this the quiet leader or quiet leadership or someone who leads from amongst the group. It sounds like that's what the intent was. But. But leading from the back didn't create that. That environment for that, did it? [00:05:12] Speaker B: No, it didn't. And you're absolutely right. I think the intention has always been to empower the team and as the leader, to be humble. Right. To embrace that humility and let the team take the wins. But it never actually worked that way for me. I just felt like it caused confusion in the workplace. [00:05:32] Speaker A: What were the ingredients of why it didn't work? [00:05:35] Speaker B: Um, I do. I think it lacked some role, clarity. People weren't certain how their contributions differed from other people's contributions. But I think the biggest issue was that we didn't have a clear goal. We didn't know what we were working towards. We weren't all rowing in the same direction because there was no one in the front leading the team forward. [00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah, you never know. You don't know where you're going if nobody tells you how to get there. And so you're like, what am I supposed to be even doing? The empowering from the inside. There have to be. Since you said again, you've heard it everywhere. This has to work though, right? Like, this has. So is it, like, is it a personality thing or did you just get unlucky? What do you think? [00:06:14] Speaker B: I think it's probably a mix of the times in which I was trying this. I think it's a mix of my temperament and personality. I'm not really a be in the crowd, blend in type of person. I am a stand out, get in front, take ownership type of person. So. So I don't think it sat well with me to begin with. But then I also think just the cultural norms in the workplace where I was, that wasn't how people were used to doing their work. So I was expecting something that they had never been kind of trained to do well. [00:06:46] Speaker C: And that's how you get in front, right? You take the reins, you take control, you do the thing. It's like, if you want to be a leader, go be a leader, right? So how do you become a leader if you only lead from the back, Right? [00:06:58] Speaker B: I have no idea. I guess that, that those are the people who allow others to shape their leadership to tell them what to do, to, to. To tell them, you know, this is what I need. So you have to follow my path. And maybe that works for some people. It just, it has never worked for me. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Manya, as, as you were going through different iterations of trying to listen to the, this advice and leading from the back or, or, you know, just creating that forum. How did it start to make you feel personally? Like, were you demotivated by it, disincentivized by it? Just tell me a little bit about what you were feeling in those moments. [00:07:39] Speaker B: The primary emotion was sheer frustration because in theory, if me bleeding from the back is empowering you, then you should be taking initiative. You should be coming to me with questions and more so with solutions to problems that you've identified. And the opposite was happening. Like I said, the teams were just paralyzed. And so I was frustrated. Like, why aren't we moving forward? And they were frustrated, why aren't we moving forward? And so it didn't take long in any of these situations for me to realize that leading from the back is bad advice. [00:08:13] Speaker C: Sort of like I think about like a therapist almost where you're like, and how did that make you feel? And it's like, I don't know. You tell me how it made me feel. Like I'm paying you. You know what I mean? What is the point? It's like, give me some guidance here. Like, don't just ask me a million questions. But like, since the advice is so prevalent, are you still hearing it? [00:08:34] Speaker B: Not anymore. And I think it's because I have kind of ascended to a position where I think people trust that she, she knows how to lead now. We don't need to give her any advice. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Talk more about your position right now, Manya. Tell me a little bit about the day to day and I guess maybe a little bit about how leading from the back is really not a possibility in your role anymore. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I have been working at Colorado College for. This is now my 15th year, but being president now is my eighth role. So prior to this role, I was interim president. Before that though, I was executive vice president and chief of staff and the president then. So my predecessor was someone who was leading from the back. And what ended up happening is, like I said, the confusion for. For me too. Right. I was part of the president's leadership team on cabinet. We just did not know what the goals were, what the priorities were. And so little by little, because I am naturally who I am, I was the one to step forward and say, this is what we're working towards. No, that's not what you should be doing. I think you should be doing X, Y and Z. And so what we saw was in this environment, particularly at a small liberal arts college post Covid, where everyone's looking for strong leadership, leading from the back was not an effective method. [00:09:56] Speaker A: How do you, or leaders in general lead from the front, but allow room for others to lead from the front, if that makes any sense. Right. I mean, well, still empower. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:09] Speaker C: While still empowering play. [00:10:11] Speaker A: How does that work for you? [00:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah. This is such a great question because it's something I kind of had to stumble into in these seven, eight different positions and lean heavily on my teacher heart. Right. I always want to make sure people have what they need to be successful, but I have to first start with helping them define what success is for them individually, but also for us as a team and an organization. And. And so I don't necessarily tell people how to follow the path to be successful. I Just give them the resources to do it and check in as needed. So when I lead from the front, I'm setting the goals, telling us the general direction, the timeline. And I'm the one kind of like the offensive line. Right. If we encounter a barrier, I'm there to take the heat for that so that the team can keep moving forward. [00:11:04] Speaker C: So it's about micromanaging, like each person. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you make sure people do their job? [00:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So some of this is about good hiring. Right. Hiring people who have integrity, who you don't feel like you have to keep checking in on because their own work ethic will ensure that they're doing the job as well as they possibly can. But also just having regular one on one meetings with people, you know, saying, hey, what's going on? Allowing them to set the agenda, asking, what do you need from me? Right. Let's talk about progress toward these goals and just being clear that at any point, if they feel like they're not going to be able to hit a goal at the timeline, to just reach out and tell me proactively so that we can problem solve together. What I tell my team is, if you have my attention, there's a problem. [00:11:54] Speaker C: What is the difference between micromanaging and leading from the front? [00:11:59] Speaker B: Micromanaging is telling the people what to do and how to do it on a day to day basis. It's not giving them space to work the way that they naturally need and want to work. Leading from the front, like I said, is just setting the course. Right. Being visible, being the one who's accountable for whether or not we reach our goals, but allowing people to be who they are. One of my favorite sayings is to meet people where they are, but don't stay there. For me, that's what leading from the front is. [00:12:29] Speaker A: What would you say to this? Because I've heard this before, I lead from the front. I think you and I have a lot of similarities in how we lead our organizations, but that leading from the front can maybe be too authoritarian or heavy handed. How do you respond to that generalization of that type of leadership? [00:12:53] Speaker B: I think it could be perceived to be heavy handed or authoritarian. If you aren't explaining your decision makings to the team and to the larger organization. When I say meet people where they are, but don't stay there, I mean bring them along with you. So that means collaboratively setting goals, collaboratively problem solving. So that way it doesn't look like I'm in the front doing everything and then passing out orders. It's just I'm in the front, you know, setting. Setting our trajectory forward. [00:13:24] Speaker A: I think many times people look at out front leaders, driven leaders as a hammer, and they see the whole world as a nail. Right? Yeah. You know, so how do you balance that money where. Where you have to drive? You have to paint the picture and the vision and you have to be the example. But you also can't just be pounding on everybody. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah. You got to give people time. I am somebody who likes to work fast, execute things, and move, move, move. And I mentioned good hiring. One of the things I look for in some roles on my cabinet are people who will slow me down. Right. I think the, those, those hammers are people who want to just execute. And it doesn't matter how well the nail fits. We just got to get it in there so we can keep going. So I intentionally have put people around me to say, stop, Manya. I don't know that that's the best fit. And I said, oh, okay, you're right. Let's pause and have a conversation about how we can do this better together. So I don't put all the onus on myself. I recognize gaps, and I try to make sure I fill those gaps with people around me. [00:14:30] Speaker C: Can you do that? Can you create an environment where people can come up to you and feel like, hey, here's what I think we should be doing and here's what I. How I think we should be doing it. But. And lead from the front. [00:14:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. You have to do that to lead from the front. To lead from the front, people have to trust you. Right. And to trust you, you have to create space for vulnerability. Which means they need to feel comfortable coming and saying, manya, I have no idea how to do what you asked me to do and to not feel like they're going to get fired or judged or demoted for it. But to trust that. When I say that to Manya, she's going to say, well, I don't know either. Let's figure it out. Right. And then we build that kind of camaraderie as we work together to, to move the organization forward. So I think it's actually a prerequisite to leading from the front. [00:15:17] Speaker C: It's funny because that's kind of what they were trying to get them to do, right, Sean? I mean, that's basically what they were like when they were saying lead from the back. It's. It's to give people space and to empower them above. But you're actually saying you're doing the opposite of what you're even trying to do when you do that. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Somebody has to carve the space. Right. I think when you lead from the back, you're, you're, you're putting that onus on your team to carve their own space. Space. And that's not their responsibility. That's your responsibility as the leader. So you need to be out front and center making the space for them so that they can grow into it. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Imman, what's the hardest part of leading from the front? [00:15:56] Speaker B: That not everybody's going to follow you. Right. And you have to be willing to turn around and say, who's on board? Who's not on board? Can I get them back on board? Give them those opportunities. But, but if you don't want to follow, then this probably isn't the best organization for you. And that's a decision that leaders have to make. [00:16:15] Speaker C: So letting people go, sometimes letting people go. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And is it about aligning with you as the leader? Is it about aligning with the mission, vision, purpose, values of the organization, or is it just a combination of all of them? [00:16:30] Speaker B: It's a combination. You know, all of us tend to choose organizations to work for because something about the values or the mission appeals to us. Right. So for me, that's a given. But then if I'm the CEO, if I'm the president, and I'm setting the direction, you've got to be on board with heading in that direction. And if you're not, then we need to just find a better fit for you. And it may be within this organization, but maybe a different role. But those are the types of conversations that I'll have with people and saying, tell me what's the issue in this job right now? And if it comes down to we have misaligned priorities, then this isn't going to work. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:09] Speaker C: And you can't do that by leading from the back. When you're like, I don't know, what do you think you should be doing today? [00:17:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:15] Speaker B: At some point you got to call the question and make a decision. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Mania is, is leading from the back. Is there ever room for that? Let's just play out an organization. Right? You've got the head of the organization, you're leading from the front of that. You've got your direct reports. They're not leading from the front of the organization, but I guess they're leading from the front. Their departments. Right. So how does this work? How does this play out throughout the organization as far as ever an opportunity to be a leader who's not necessarily out front. [00:17:48] Speaker B: I think, you know, early in your career, I think this is when it's probably easiest also to lead from the back, when you don't necessarily yet maybe have the confidence or the experience to be the one carving the path forward. Maybe you don't know what direction you should see that for the organization. So you do kind of take a step back and allow people who maybe are more knowledgeable, who have a longer tenure at that organization, to give you advice and guidance. But at some point, you have to say, all right, thanks. I heard that, synthesized it, analyzed it, and now I'm going to walk to the front of the line. So I think when people first join an organization, there's opportunities, even in a leadership position, to lead from the back. And we see this with a lot of presidents in their first year of colleges, so. And universities. [00:18:36] Speaker A: We. We had a guest one time on the show. This goes back probably 30 or 40 episodes ago. JB, you remember Phil Schrader who talked about, you know, he was told, you know, don't change anything in the first year. You start with an organization, right? Don't change things. But it also feels like to demonstrate you have the vision and the capability for leadership, you've got to identify things that need to change. How, if you're not leading from the front in position like that, you're still early in your career, how do people. How do people find that and then bring that up to leaders like you to. To see that. What does it take in them to be able to do that? [00:19:16] Speaker B: You know, I think. And I can use myself as an example. I wasn't sure how I was leading, right? I was just doing my job. I was just working. And I think other people saw in me the potential to lead from the front. Most of the positions I was given, it was like, we need somebody to get in there to be decisive, to be decisive and to figure out these problems. Manya has demonstrated that she likes a challenge, right? And so in some ways, you have to lead, even not, maybe not from the front, but wherever your position is. Lead where you stand, right? That's something else I tell folks is to lead where you stand as you own your position. And then eventually someone will see you kind of poking your head up out of the line and they'll ask you to come forward. And I think that's what happened for me. [00:20:05] Speaker C: Well, not everybody's a leader, right? So some people are, like, perfectly great. Like, oh, no, just you tell me what to do and I go do it. And there's a thing. So is there. What's the advice you give to them who are just like, no, I don't, I don't want to be in charge. I'd rather not. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:19] Speaker B: Know yourself and own your position. Right. Everybody doesn't want me to still own [00:20:24] Speaker C: your position, even if you're not correct. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Being a leader, you know, isn't about having a title. Right. It's about setting a course of direction, even if it's just for yourself, and working with integrity to get the highest outcome possible. Right. So I agree. Not everybody wants or needs to be in the front. And we need folks who don't want that so that I can be in [00:20:46] Speaker C: the front that'll be in front of somebody. [00:20:50] Speaker B: Right. Somebody has to be willing to walk behind me. But I think the best, the piece of advice that I give young folks is to know yourself. Right? It's to know yourself. [00:21:02] Speaker A: There's. There's a skill set to leading from the front, Manya. I mean, I think you and I can probably agree to that. What do we do for people who maybe aspirationally think they want to lead from the front or be the, you know, the person, you know, at the top or out in front who maybe is missing part of that skill set? Talk about the skill set that's necessary to lead from the front and how we advise people if they don't have some of those skills, who want to lead from the front. [00:21:31] Speaker B: I think project management is a huge piece of leading from the front. You have to be able to balance a lot of moving pieces at one time. Strong interpersonal skills. Right. Being able to understand people's strengths in areas in need of improvement so that you can make sure you have the right people in the right positions doing work that's aligned with their skills, skill set. And I think as the leader, offering those kind of opportunities to upskill. Right. Even if you're an associate vice president or a vice president or a president, it doesn't mean that you don't have room to grow. Everybody has something they're uncomfortable with doing at work. And I think digging in and helping people, again, be self aware and say, okay, I want to be a leader and I know that I need to get better skills of having difficult conversations with people. Right. And if I'm their leader and they say that to me, then that's my responsibility. Even if it means that I am training someone up who may leave the organization, to me, that's success. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, succession planning is always the hard part. Right. It's like you know, how do we train for the future, prepare for the future when it may not fit within the timeline of the individual who's looking to, you know, lead at a particular point in time? I'm sure that's, you know, faced you within your organization, and it faces others. [00:22:55] Speaker C: What. [00:22:56] Speaker A: What skill set did you have to work on the most for yourself? Like, work on the hardest to be able to lead from the front. [00:23:04] Speaker B: To let go, right? To let go. I think a lot of people who end up in these types of leadership positions end up there because we've demonstrated we can get it done right. And I remember probably it had to be at this point 10 years ago, when I was chairing my academic department, they did a kind of 360review of me. And the piece of feedback that I still carry with me is many a can sometimes go so fast, she leaves us behind. And every kind of probably once a week, I remember that. And I tell myself, right, you're not here to lead you anymore. Right. You have to lead a team. So you have to let go of trying to do the work, to speed things up and to let people work at their pace and push when you need to. That has been a very difficult thing for me to do, is to just let go and watch other people work in ways. And I'm like, I don't know if that's the best way to do this, but I gotta let you fail. I gotta let you learn, and then we can start over. [00:24:16] Speaker C: I mean, that's one of the things about leading from the front, too, is like, sometimes you can. If you get too far ahead, then all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm just by myself now, and there's not anybody behind me. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Yep. [00:24:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Yep. And I. I think I thought that, like, magically everybody would just follow course and. And take my pace. That was a. A really good lesson, is they weren't saying that they didn't trust my leadership. In fact, the feedback said, we trust Manya. It's just, we want to come with her on this journey. We don't want to be left behind. And so I had to figure out, like, how do I bring people along with me? And at the same time, that requires me to release the time frame that I have in my mind. It requires me to release the work methods that I have. [00:25:04] Speaker A: JB it reminds me a lot of Michael Brody Waite. Yeah. He talked about surrendering the outcome. That's what Many is saying right here, is I've got to be able to push, monitor, but Ultimately surrender the outcome to the way others would, you know, get to it. That's. That's what I hear many of you saying here, Manu, is that. Does that encompass what you're saying? It's like, I Gotta be okay, 100. [00:25:25] Speaker B: Let it go. Surrender the outcome and know that you have to take responsibility for it. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:31] Speaker C: Yeah, Right? I mean, yeah, you can lead a horse to water. You can't make them drink kind of stuff, but eventually, if the horse guys of dehydration, that is on you, it's on you. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker C: Got to figure it out. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Brutal. [00:25:41] Speaker C: Got to figure it out. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Hey, speaking of brutal, for anyone listening that's been told to lead from the back manual, what do you want them to hear instead of that? [00:25:49] Speaker B: That leadership is not hiding. Leadership is not hiding. Leadership is about giving your team what they need to be successful. And what they need to be successful is clear guidance, direction, and support. And you can only give that from the front. [00:26:08] Speaker A: Well, Manya, you're clearly giving your team what they need to be successful. And you've also done a great thing today by giving our listening audience what they need to be successful. So I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to spend time with us here on the Worst Advice Ever. Got to share your story, share about how leading from the back certainly was not the answer for you, and there's better alternatives. So thanks for joining us today. [00:26:33] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you so much for this opportunity. It's been great. [00:26:37] Speaker A: You know, jb, one of the things I really enjoyed about this conversation was how every answer Dr. Whitaker gave stayed right on topic, but it still managed to bring a new perspective with every response. [00:26:53] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I noticed that too. You know, a couple times, it almost felt like we were asking kind of the same question. And I'm thinking, all right, I'm probably gonna edit this out so we don't get redundant. And then she would come in with a whole, like, expanded answ. You know, we've had some great guests, but she's definitely up there with the top ones. And obviously, anyone who keeps the edits easy for jb, I'm a big fan of. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Oh, I'm sure you are. I'm sure you are. High five, Dr. Whitaker. But no, you're exactly right. It felt like every answer added, like, another layer. For example, you know, it's a pretty great skill for someone whose job is leading an institution, and. And who's someone who's responsible for asking people to trust that she has, you know, good advice or the right answers. [00:27:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, for sure. I. Speaking of good answers, you know, I was trying to think of what my favorite takeaway was, but I had trouble kind of narrowing it down to one because, like, there kept being moments where I'm like, okay, that's the one. Definitely going to make that a real. This is the one takeaway. And then the next two minutes, there was another one. So. Yeah, I don't know. Did you have one? [00:27:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm picking just one is always tough in any of these conversations that we have, but for me, I. I guess if I had to say, I would say even empowered teams need structure and clarity. Right? We. We ask her a lot of questions about how you can be a leader from the front without creating that authoritarian environment. And as a leader from the front myself, that resonated with me. [00:28:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, leadership isn't just about having to tell people, you know, follow my orders and do it the exact way I'm telling you. It's about, like she said, giving people the space to get things done in their own and while still keeping them, you know, rowing in the right direction. So, yeah, all right, good call. Maybe that's the. That's the best one. [00:28:36] Speaker A: Best one for me, I guess. And each of you probably have your own best takeaways from Dr. Whitaker's episode. So that's the great thing about these episodes. But thank you again to Dr. Whitaker for spending time with us and sharing her perspective today. Hope you all keep listening and we'll keep bringing you excellent guests turning bad advice into good stories. So thanks again. We'll see you next time for another episode of the Worst Advice I Ever Got.